Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.
Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful, an ongoing conversation about faith, politics, and culture as they relate to fatness.
Amanda – Hi everyone welcome to episode 10 of season two of Fat and Faithful. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I am here with my faithful co-host-
Nicole – J. Nicole Morgan. Hi everyone. So good to be here. Today we are discussing fat acceptance myths: what’s out there, why they aren’t true, and how we can respond when we see them.
Amanda – But before we get to the rest of the episode our resource recommendation of the week is Nicole’s book Fat and faithful.
Nicole – Woo hoo!
Amanda – Yay! Available from Fortress Press. It’s available for preorder on Amazon and-
Nicole – Barnes and Noble.
Amanda – The exciting news is that if you preorder, you get access to Chapter 1 already, and a discussion guide.
Nicole – Yes I have, one of my very good friends wrote the discussion guide and I’m really proud to have that for people. She’s really got at like asking questions and getting you to think and all of that so.
Amanda – That’s so exciting so see Nicole’s Twitter, for more information. It will be the pinned tweet and her Twitter is @JNicoleMorgan. So that is the resource recommendation for the week. And now let’s get to our episode.
Nicole – So Amanda what’s happening with you in faith and fatness this week?
Amanda – I’m so glad you asked so we’re recording this on June 4th. It will release on June 11th, which happens to be my birthday.
Nicole – Yay, happy birthday!
Amanda – Thank you. And yesterday, so June 3rd was the Feast of Corpus Christi in the Catholic Church. What that means is Corpus is body. And Christie is Christ and so it was the Feast of the most Holy Body and Blood of Christ. And I am in the middle of a series on my Instagram called Today’s Good Body Takeaway. And it’s looking at the lectionary from the Catholic Church. And so we have, every three years we read through the Bible in the Catholic Church. We have morning readings, evening readings, mass, all, all different kind of readings. So I’m just taking the daily readings. And looking at them and pulling out lessons about bodies and how we know our bodies are good. So I, and I did not plan that I would be going through the series when we came upon the Corpus Christi feast. Which so, it was really exciting when I was like oh hey, the Holy Spirit has a great sense of timing.
Nicole – I was gonna say serendipitous.
Amanda – Yes spiritdipitous or something like that.
Nicole – Yeah, something like that.
Amanda – And so yeah the Feast of the Body and the Blood is really precious to me because, that’s the reason that I became Catholic. I mean, that’s the reason I became a Christian in the first place. Actually I was three years old. I don’t know if I’ve shared the story on the podcast.
Nicole – No.
Amanda – No? So, I was three years old and my parents went to a bible church in west Texas and they took communion every week which is pretty rare for a Protestant church that’s not liturgical. And I wanted to eat the cracker and drink the juice. Because why wouldn’t you, right, when you’re three. And my parents as it was passed down the aisle my parents shushed me and, and kept me from getting cracker and juice and I was sad. As any three year old would be. So that afternoon, we got home and they shared the gospel with me. They told me about the cross and sin and Jesus saving, coming to save us. So I prayed to receive Jesus. Well the next week at church my parents didn’t think that I really understood ’cause I was three. And so when the juice and the crackers came by again I reached out to take some and they kept me back from taking it. So I said really loud, I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and I want to take communion.
Nicole – Very practical child like here’s all I get what I want. Yes.
Amanda – And so they let me take communion and there was never a pause before that again. But I love, I love that the Lord has revealed to me since then that he used my appetite to draw me to him, that there’s just something so precious about Jesus being food and drink ’cause he meets us in that very vulnerable place. So, I love the Feast of Corpus Christi because it’s a celebration of that. I mean we do it every week in the Catholic church every day but it’s a specific feast for that.
Nicole – Intentional. That’s awesome. Yeah. It reminds me of the “Oh taste and see that the Lord is good” verse.
Amanda – Amen, Psalm Psalm 34 verse 8. One of my life.
Nicole – Look at you!
Amanda – One of my life verses.
Nicole – It’s very evangelical of you to know that’s, chapter and verse reference.
Amanda – It’s very evangelical with me. Three years Catholic, a lifetime of being Protestant, so…
Nicole – You got your Bible drill down.
Amanda – It’s true. What’s, what’s new for you in faith in fatness?
Nicole – So this weekend I got to do something that I had been looking forward to for a very long time. There is, I went on a group hike with a group, an organization loosely held group of people, not really sure, a movement called Unlikely Hikers. And you can find them on Instagram. It’s run by a lady named Jenny Bruso. But she is very intentional about diversity and inclusion in the outdoors. So we had, I believe it was 28 people came to this hike. Which is huge for a group hike. A variety of body types and sizes and ethnic, racial diversity, gender all of that, sexuality. So it was a really cool experience to be in this very inclusive group and everyone was just on board for everyone being outside and being active. And I actually like I kind of struggled with the hike. I have had bronchitis the last week and I probably shouldn’t have gone, but I had been looking forward to it for months and so I went and I like, fell twice which was probably not the result of the bronchitis, just because I’m a little clumsy. And I wasn’t hurt I just, was muddy at the end of it. But I had to like stop and catch my breath. And then just like my stomach was not doing good. And I hike fairly often I never had that happen before. But ultimately one of the women in the group volunteered to walk a little slower with me behind, so the whole group didn’t have to wait, which I was so thankful for. They’re very much about not leaving anyone behind but I was having a special day. So one woman walked with me a little bit slower. And the rest of group went on ahead and I think at the ended up we were only like 10 to 15 minutes behind them at the end. So it wasn’t a huge thing. But anyways it was really good and very affirming to just do it. And even if maybe I should have stayed and rested, given my lungs a little bit more of a chance to recover from bronchitis, I’m so glad I went. And very thankful for that community that Jenny has created and yeah. So I went to check them out on Instagram and on Facebook and Twitter too I think. But Instagram is their big platform and it’s Unlikely Hikers.
Amanda – That’s so exciting. I wish we had a group like that here. Maybe we should start one.
Nicole – Go for it.
Amanda – Although I don’t know where we would hike ’cause we’re in Texas.
Nicole – You just don’t have any shade. I’m a very big fan of the Southeastern hikes where there’s rivers, and lots of shady trees.
Amanda – We’ve we’ve got the trees in East Texas. We’ve got lots of trees but.
Nicole – Oh that’s good.
Amanda – But there’s we have a walking path that extends a couple miles through the middle of town which it’s not hike but it’s walking. So maybe I’ll do something like that. Yeah.
Nicole – I pretty much consider walking in nature hiking, so there you go.
Amanda – We need lots of bug spray. We’ve got lots of bugs out here. So. All right. Well today we are talking about fat acceptance myths or body positivity myths. We are in, Nicole explicitly calls herself as a fat acceptance activist which is a branch of body positivity. I call myself a size dignity activist, because I found that a lot of people in my audience were uncomfortable with the word fat. Which isn’t something we’ll talk about. So. Nicole what’s our first myth to discuss.
Nicole – So here’s one that I hear you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So instead you changed your mind.
Amanda – Hmm. Has someone ever said that to you.
Nicole – Not in those exact words. I don’t know if it’s ever been directed like, specifically at me but I’ve definitely seen the idea. It’s that whole, those who can’t do teach kind of idea where it’s just, if you couldn’t figure out what you actually wanted to do, you just decided that what you were was your goal, is the accusation. That you gave up and are rationalizing. I think is what people are trying to say.
Amanda – Yeah I, I don’t think it’s ever been directed at me but I’ve definitely seen it and it’s made me feel like it’s directed at me. If that makes sense.
Nicole – And I think, for me part of what is most hurtful about this myth, or hearing it. I don’t even know if hurtful is the right word, but there is this grain of truth in there, like I did give up on dieting. I did decide that, that was not a goal of mine and it used to be. So my goal did change and some people will assume my goal changed because I couldn’t reach the original one and that, I that this isn’t kind of like resignation or defeat or trying to make myself feel better about second place. When the truth is I, my original goal was faulty. My original goal is set up to not, for us not to be able to exceed, to succeed. Like most people studies show, can’t lose a significant amount of weight, and keep it off in the long term. You yo yo diet and everything else and so yeah I did change my goal and I did, make something else my goal. But it’s not, I’m having trouble like putting it into words but that nugget of truth is what makes this particular myth kind of hard to talk about with people who don’t get it. But what are your thoughts.
Amanda – So, I want to look like structurally at this myth. So you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So instead you changed your mind. Now the first part of that, you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So we asked the question, why do we need to be thin, right? Why, I’m writing this down, we need to be thin. And then, this is how I dissect things. I write them down. So why do we need to be thin? We don’t. That’s, that’s the first part. And that kind of takes away the power of this of the phrase. Because we don’t have to be thin. But then, addressing the second part, you couldn’t do the work. Couldn’t do the work. yall get to hear my teacher mode today. This is what, when I would teach, I would have my whiteboard and be writing down whatever I said. And dissecting it from there. So couldn’t do the work. So what is the work involved in being thin? That’s not a rhetorical question.
Nicole – Oh, sorry. You’re not writing down your plans. OK. That was an actual question. So the work to be thin, is diet and exercise for the most part. Or, people will say self-control. You don’t have any self-control. That’s really the work of being thin.
Amanda – Yeah. And I think. Ooooh, I just I feel that. Because I ugh, I’ve thought it so much. I just don’t have self-control like, when the scripture says, and is it first Timothy, that the Lord has given us not a spirit of fear but a spirit, a sound mind–.
Nicole – Sound mind.
Amanda – And self control.
Nicole – The fruit of the spirit.
Amanda – Right. So am I not spiritual? Do I not have the Holy Spirit living in me. And that’s that’s the painful accusation that comes when people say that weight issues are just a matter of self-control.
Nicole – Right. And so then if you can’t do the work of self-control and so you instead, you change your mind, we’re going to stick on this whole scripture thing. So now you are what is it, a piece of driftwood tossed easily to and fro. That’s the verse that would always get me. So now you have, you have no convictions. You have no understanding of who you are, who God is, or what he wants from you. So all of this myth, is basically telling us we lack all ability to know ourself and to do hard work. Which is just not true.
Amanda – And to let God change us.
Nicole – Yeah.
Amanda – Because you know the first article I read by you. How, the way that we were introduced was, you wrote the piece for Christianity Today, “God loves my fat body as it is.” And in there you said that, you asked God so many times to help you lose weight, right?
Nicole – Yeah.
Amanda – Because that would prove that you were walking with him and that you could do all things through Christ.
Nicole – Right. So weight loss became a sign of my self control and my dependence on God and that I was a good Christian.
Amanda – So is weight loss an indicator of self-control, or weight loss, or thinness. And the answer is…
Nicole – No.
Amanda – No. Weight loss and thinness are not a function of spirit given self-control. Weight is factored, has so many different factors, and it’s way more complicated than calories in, calories out. Calories in, being diet. Calories out, being exercise. It is way more complex than that. And so part of part of fat acceptance or body positivity or size dignity, is accepting that, is coming to our bodies humbly and saying, we don’t get it. We don’t know why all these things are happening. We can’t say for certain that x causes y, that causes z, because people in all size bodies get diabetes. People in all size bodies have heart attacks. We can’t just say we get how the body works completely. So I think it’s really coming to it with an attitude of humility. To recognize that, weight is not an indicator of discipline, self-discipline.
Nicole – Yeah. So I think, then their response to this myth, is yes my goals changed. But they didn’t change because I gave up. They changed because I understood reality better, or I understood my body better.
Amanda – Yeah. That, my goals changed. I couldn’t do the work to be thin, no. I decided I didn’t want to do the work to be thin. ‘Cause it wasn’t my body piece.
Nicole – Right.
Amanda – And I did change my mind. it definitely involves changing your mind.
Nicole – It does.
Amanda – Definitely.
Nicole – It is a dedicated persistent work of changing your mind on this topic. I tell people frequently, it is a journey. It is a path. Someone asked me, I don’t remember where, like, how long it took me. And it was at least 10 years before body positivity and accepting myself, was my default most of the time. And even now, it’s not always my fault. But I remember, it was 10 years after I really started trying, where I realized one day, oh this is almost second nature to me now. Now I typically assume my body is good rather than assuming it is bad.
Amanda – I love that. I mean that’s, I love that you’re there. And I think we’re so focused on a quick fix. For everything in our life, right? And knowing that, that is an act of self-control. You have been walking in self-control about thoughts towards your body for 10 years. And you’re seeing the fruit of that. So if anyone ever tells you that you don’t have self-control, when we look at the fruit. And my loving God, and my neighbor as myself better than I was 10 years ago. Yes, then I am walking in some measure of self-discipline. That is the purpose of self-control. Is to be able to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself more.
Nicole – Amen, like that is the test. I wish I knew who said it but I just scrolled through a tweet the other day and it said, the test for if you love God in the Bible, is if you love your neighbor. The test for if you love your neighbor, is if you love your enemy.
Amanda – Wow.
Nicole – And so yes exactly what you just said. If what you’re doing with your body means you love your neighbor more, than you’re getting something right.
Amanda – Right. Well speaking of enemies, fat acceptance myth number two.
Nicole – Yes, so fat acceptance shames thin people.
Amanda – So, allow me to be a little bit nerdy. The ideas behind deconstruction, in a literary sense, like in literary theory or, I don’t, it’s much bigger than just literary theory. But, was it Foucault who is the deconstruction person?
Nicole – Oh I don’t know. Derrida.
Amanda – Derrida, thank you. Is it Derrida?Jacques Derrida.
Nicole – Yeah I mean it’s been a while since literary criticism.
Amanda – Foucault, I think Foucault is structuralism.
Nicole – Yeah, that sounds right.
Amanda – I need my English teacher husband here, because he’s really helped me see this in terms of deconstructing. So when, and please jump in at any point. But deconstruction is, is looking at something, a topic like thin versus fat. And you have thin as, is the good and fat is the bad. So the first is good. The second is bad. And in order to look at that in a better way, you flip those two. So fat versus thin, where fat becomes the good and then becomes the bad. The point is not to say that thin is actually bad, it’s just to point out the differences between those. And I think people get uncomfortable when we start saying fat is good because they automatically assume that, that means thin is bad.
Nicole – Yeah. So you do this mental trick, or this mind exercise. Where you find the goodness of fat and sometimes because of just the way our culture has talked about bodies, like you, like you’re saying you have to put them on the bad side in order to get your mind there. But that’s not the goal. All bodies are good bodies right?
Amanda – Right. Exactly.
Nicole – And then I think on the same time, that there’s definitely, some people, no matter if what you’re doing, if you are elevating bodies of one type, they will think you’re criticizing bodies of another type. We see this when we talk about other issues of justice and inequality. If someone says Black Lives Matter, someone else is gonna think you don’t like white people. Which is not at all what it means.
Amanda – Right.
Nicole – And so this is the same a very similar situation. We’re saying you we need to treat fat bodies with love and dignity and respect and give them equal access to the world.
Amanda – Part of that is when a certain body type has had the cultural favor, forever, when you start to push for equality, it’s going to feel limiting towards those who have been in a position of power. So in the fat versus thin world, thin people have been privileged to be celebrated, to be idolized, to be held up as paragons. And part of claiming the goodness of fat bodies is saying not only that fat bodies are good, but we’re worshipping thin bodies so you gotta bring it down. And that feels uncomfortable for, for the thin paradigm. Does that make sense?
Nicole – Yes. And that means that some people might have to give up something. Just this is a common example for me. But group T-shirts, you talked about it in a couple episodes ago, with your ability to have a shirt for your work function. But I’m at the point where I’m saying, if you can’t find a distributor that has sizes up to at least a 6X, like don’t order T-shirts. Then people don’t get em. No one gets T-shirts unless everyone gets T-shirts. And whether that’s a band or a musician, like huge large popular entertainment on tour who brings all their band shirts with them to sell. Or a Christian conference, or your church’s, you know, hospitality team. Like whatever it is like, if everyone can’t participate, then no one gets to. And there might be thin people who would be like, “why don’t we wear T-shirts anymore.” And you, you lose your ability to have the T-shirt that you always had, if you’re going to really be on board. We’re going to make sure everything is equitable as much as we can before we participate with it. So.
Amanda – And the thing about this is, it’s gonna be uncomfortable for both sides to be talking about these things. Fat people have been told for so long that they don’t deserve to take up as much space as they need, and that they are a blight to society and I mean the list can go on and on and on. But we have to say, because the negativity towards fat people has been so great, it’s going to feel really awkward for both sides to say, “hey this makes me feel dehumanized.”.
Nicole – Right.
Amanda – And just for people to recognize that, if I’m a fat person talking about fat bodies being good, I’m not saying you’re thin body isn’t good but I’m saying that, the way that our culture has supported you, has dehumanized me. So it’s not to shame thin people, but it is to point out idolatry and injustice. And that makes people uncomfortable.
Nicole – Yeah. And I will say like I have, I have heard people who are, who are fat, who have said negative things about thin bodies, who will criticize them and make jokes and say things like, “Eat a hamburger” or they’ll make cool comments and those comments are wrong.
Amanda – Yes.
Nicole – And they do not honor the dignity of the person that they are speaking about.
Amanda – Absolutely. .
Nicole – Don’t excuse those comments. But as you were talking earlier with that, where you flip the script. It is a coping mechanism that people in fat bodies use because of how often fat bodies are devalued. And so you flip the script in your head, it’s a coping mechanism and it’s not right. And I call it out when people around me are doing it. But there is a power differential in a fat person making a joke about a thin body, than our entire culture that marginalizes fat bodies.
Amanda – Yes.
Nicole – And so that’s an important thing to remember as a thin person. Definitely call out your friends if they say something hurtful, let them know. But also, at the same time understand where the privilege and the power is in this relationship.
Amanda – I love that, that was really well said, thank you. So, the last myth that we will address today is fat is a bad word or it’s rude to call yourself fat. What are your thoughts on that. Nicole.
Nicole – I am fat. I don’t think that’s rude. So, but at the same time, if I’m talking about people that I don’t know where they’re at with their body acceptance journey, I will use the term plus size until I know how they call themselves, what word they used for themselves. It’s becoming more common to use fat as a neutral word which is amazing. Because that has been the goal for a very long time in the fat acceptance community. But we’re not there yet. And it definitely matters in the tone and how it’s said. You can tell when someone is insulting you or just using a neutral word. So I would say lead with what the person uses about themselves, is kind of how I play with that. Yeah. I think that is the wrong phrasing but yeah.
Amanda – That’s how you gauge when to use it?
Nicole – Yes. There we go, that’s a better word. Yeah, how about you?
Amanda – I, I’m still not a huge fan of the word fat, if someone else uses it towards me. Unless I know them well, because it, words have power right? Words can be wielded as weapons of destruction or as instruments of peace. And when we decided to name our podcast Fat and Faithful, for me it was a very intentional claiming of the goodness of my body and the descriptor is fat. So I definitely believe that it is a good word. I have a lot of baggage that comes with the word. And part of calling ourselves fat, for me, is to remove that stigma, not just for myself, but for other people that the world deems fat. For example, when my children say someone is fat, I have to affirm the humanity of the person that they’re referring to. And so instead of saying, “don’t say that because it’s shameful no one wants to be fat” in how I respond I say, oh tell me why you think that. And what do we say about bodies? All bodies are good bodies. And so it’s redefining the script around the word fat. That is my mission even though using it, when someone uses it towards me, it still makes me uncomfortable. That’s precisely why I want to keep using it. Because it is not the worst thing in the world to be fat. It is not shameful. And so when I encounter the word and stand as a witness against the shame, that is, I believe that’s powerful. And it’s something small and yet incredibly important that I can do, so it’s not a bad word.
Nicole – It is not, and I love how you, you talk about with your kids like you interrogate their labelling almost. Like why are you saying that? What are you saying? What does that mean about them? So that’s really good. And it’s part of teaching them what our new slogan is, that we love God incarnate in our neighbor’s body as our own.
Amanda – I love our new slogan. All right. Well here this was a really good discussion today with our fat acceptance mythbuster episode. I want to remind our listeners about Nicole’s book, Fat and Faithful. It’s available for preorder on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and is it available from the website site Fortress Press?
Nicole – There’s a link there with ways you can order. So they have different ways you could order from there.
Amanda – And remember if you preorder you get access to Chapter One and a discussion guide. And so make sure you do that and check Nicole’s pinned tweet to get details on accessing Chapter 1 and the discussion guide. We’d love to hear what fat acceptance myths you have encountered, and how you responded to them. Also this is our final episode for season two. We’re gonna be taking some time this summer to plan out season three. So make sure you share your ideas on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter about things you’d like to hear from us in season 3.
Nicole – Thank you so much for joining us today. We’d love for you to continue to engage with us online. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at fat and faithful and join the discussion group on Facebook, All Bodies Are Good Bodies. Please take a minute to rate and review the podcast on iTunes and share this episode on social media using the hashtags #allbodiesaregoodbodies or #fatandfaithful. This helps us reach more people with our mission to love God incarnate in our neighbors body as our own.
Amanda – We hope y’all have a great week and we’ll see you in season 3.
Nicole – See y’all later!
Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.
Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful, an ongoing conversation about faith, politics, and culture as they relate to fatness.
Amanda – Hello and welcome to this episode of Fat and Faithful. We’re glad to be here with you today. Today we’re talking about being the fat kid: experience. . . The experiences of fat children. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I am with my cohost.
Nicole – Nicole Morgan.
Amanda – We grew up as fat kids.
Nicole – We did.
Amanda – So we wanted to talk about that a little bit.
Nicole – So a few weeks ago I had a picture in my Facebook memories that showed up and it was like a picture of me when I was 13 I think on the beach. . . and I was like, yeah, a picture of my childhood and I remember being 13 and trying to remember, or trying to figure out if I was allowed to like that picture of myself. I was like carrying a little boogie board and the sun was setting. It was very beachy. It looked kind of cool but, I was like well I’m in a bathing suit and I’m fat so maybe I’m not supposed to like this. And that was kind of … I was like, we should talk about this and just all of the things that go on as a fat kid.
Amanda – Absolutely. Well what what is new in fatness and faith?
Nicole – Oh goodness. I usually have an answer ready for this. And I don’t today. I got a haircut yesterday. Maybe that doesn’t sound like fatness, but it’s short hair and all the rules say you’re not supposed to have short hair when you have a fat face. But, I love it.
Amanda – Oh no, It’s an amazing haircut. It’s an amazing haircut.
Nicole – I should retweet it into the Fat and Faithful timeline.
Amanda – Oh please do.
Nicole – So everyone else can see my hair.
Amanda – Well it’s connected to what I wanted to bring up about in faith and fatness not related really to faith or fatness but I guess it’s been a week or maybe two weeks. There was a “post your original headshot” from celebrities.
Nicole – I saw all that.
Amanda – And they . ..so we see pictures, like Reese Witherspoon as a 13 year old who looks pretty much exactly the same in her face as, I don’t know, a 40 something year old but I thought it would be fun if we found pictures of ourselves that we liked as children. Or you know to go back and look and be like see, I’m obviously didn’t have a headshot done here or maybe had a Glamour Shot done or whatever but just to post them, to post them on the Fat and Faithful page so we can just delight in your child’s self.
Nicole – Fat and faithful childhood.
Amanda – Yeah.
Nicole – Have our own hashtag.
Amanda – And you don’t have to be fat to post your picture, because everyone’s body is good. But I found some awesome pictures. It’s definitely I was, I was always the biggest kid in my class, but when I look back at my pictures I’m like, I was also the most awkwardly dressed.
Nicole – We should talk about the lack of plus sized children’s clothes..
Amanda – Yes especially in the 80s 90s. Oh man.
Nicole – I can tell you a little about that as we get into. What I remember wearing. There was lots of stretch cotton.
Amanda – Oh yes. And my shorts that I was not allowed to wear to school but that I still wore. I was buckin’ the system early. They’re like, my teacher, I remember my fifth grade teacher being like, Amanda, you can’t wear bike shorts to school. And I was just like nothing else fits!
Nicole – Like, this is all I’ve got.
Amanda – Yeah and even to wear it, which was very counter to my personality type. I was very much a people pleaser. But if you don’t have clothes, that’s a big deal.
Nicole – It is a big deal, it’s a thing, it’s a problem. I think it’s better now for kids these days. But it’s a thing.
Amanda – Yeah the internet has made things so much more accessible.
Nicole – So we asked many of you about your fat childhoods and if you wanted to share anything with us or tell us about what that was like if you were a fat kid too and we heard quite a few of you. So I wanted to read some of those stories. So I guess we can just go back and forth and read these. So I’ll start. So this is from Erin. And we did ask permission to use everyone’s names so we’re good here. So Erin says “I was a fat kid with a thin mom and sister. I think the thing that messed me up the most was the mixed messages I got from my parents. My mom in particular. I never doubted I was loved. I was told I was beautiful. They never berated me or called me out for being fat. Never praised my sister for being thin. But they took me to the doctor to see if there was anything physically wrong with me, ’cause why am I so fat and my sisters are not. They asked me if I had been abused, because I guess that would have explained something. But I hadn’t been. It would stop me from taking second helpings at dinner. My mom, who is naturally thin, always complained about her weight, obsessed about what she ate, or demean herself when she gained weight and she never weighed more than 112 pounds when I was growing up. The thought I internalized was, if she thinks that about herself, what must she think about me.”.
Amanda – There’s so much there.
Nicole – One thing with what Erin shared was that, they called her beautiful. They didn’t make fun of her. And that’s so often, I hear people’s that vice for body image is for like parents to tell their kids that they’re beautiful or tell their girls that they are beautiful. And I, I understand that. But like, pretty is not the point. Parents or others can tell people they’re beautiful. But when you get treated like you’re different, it still matters. It’s still noticed. Kids still notice that, and there are definitions of beauty in our culture that change with culture and change over time and you can play into those or not play into those on any given day. But for me I just I don’t really, I like to feel pretty personally but that’s not the point for me. And so I tend to not advise people to use like, the princess beautiful pretty language because that makes it so that that’s the goal, is to be attractive in some way. When in reality the goal is to be accepted for who you are and valued for who you are and not made to feel ashamed or othered or that you don’t fit into your family or that you’re somehow different in a bad way. Because of your body.
Amanda – I have three little girls and a son who’s awesome. They’re all awesome. But figuring out how to speak to them in a way that affirms their bodies is something I think about daily. And I’m probably counter what you said just slightly. I think it’s important to teach children what beauty is and then affirm that beauty in them. So I think you’re probably using beauty as a shorthand for attractiveness.
Nicole – Yeah.
Amanda – And I I remember growing up and never really hearing that I was beautiful and that there was a place in me that wanted to be beautiful. I think that that actually I would say that’s a human drive to be beautiful. And I think we, each person is. But we define it in our culture as attractiveness, which has to do with what other people, how other people value our appearance as opposed to the inherent goodness. Now I’m not saying you said that any of that like you didn’t.
Nicole – Yeah, you’re just clarifying the words. I definitely mean like attractive and I’m like not everyone is attractive.
Amanda – Right.
Nicole – That’s just the truth.
Amanda – It’s true.
Nicole – That doesn’t mean not everyone is valuable.
Amanda – Yes. My two older daughters they’re 6 and 2 and my oldest, she’s a fashionista. So she’ll put on clothes and she’ll comment she’ll be like Mommy am I beautiful?And so in those circumstances, trying to unpack that of, Oh my goodness you are beautiful and I think you have good taste in clothes and you are delightful. I try to round it out so that she knows that it’s not merely what she looks like on her face or her body, like she’s engaging as a person. But my 2 year old has started doing it just in the past month or so. She’ll say “do I look pretty and my beautiful?” And so trying to, I’ve been just trying to work through that of, oh my goodness she’s so beautiful. And I want to affirm all these other things that are valuable. So sometimes like I remember there was a Verizon commercial. I don’t know why it was a Verizon commercial. But is about a little girl not being able to play in the creek in a dress, and like turning her away from science, and because she was being complimented for being pretty and beautiful, and we needed to compliment brains instead. And I just remember watching them being like, I think we have a desire to be aesthetically pleasing. You know what I mean?
Nicole – Yeah I think it’s a yes and a both and. Yeah I mean I, I tell my nieces they’re pretty, and I like being pretty when people tell me I’m pretty, everyone told me my haircut was pretty. It was fun. But like yes, what you’re saying is go beyond that. So you have good taste in clothes or, that was very creative of you or I let your adventurous spirit or you know adding to it that it’s not all about what you look like at the moment.
Amanda – WelI, I don’t want to encourage an gnostic view of bodies, saying that our brain or you know soul is more important than our flesh. What we want to to celebrate the whole thing together as an incarnational people. So I’m sure, I’m sure that we’ll get a lot more interesting points so we go on. We’re kind of going off the cuff with how we’re discussing these things. So I love it. I’m, I’m an off the cuff kind of person, Nichol’s a very planned person. Let’s go into the next story here. This is from Jordan. “I was always above the average weight but it started becoming noticeable more as I entered elementary school. I liked foods especially, quote, bad foods and hated vegetables, still do because of food textures. I remember going through my school scrapbook, my grandmother kept of me and her getting frustrated as my weight kept crawling up, up, up, every year. I heard constant versions of if only you lost weight. You have such a pretty face or if only you looked like her or her, or you can wear such cute clothes or do this or that if you were skinny. The list could go on. The worst was when they’d compare me to my cousin, five years my junior, who has special needs, one of which includes eating and stomach problems so she’s super skinny. I remember being told once, I’d never be able to do a certain job. I think it was singing, I had wild aspirations as a child because I was fat. It stung. I was also an emotional eater who was extremely sensitive to these types of comments. So instead of pushing me to lose, they were pushing me to eat more. As a child, we tried different diets and such, but nothing stuck. I was put in dance classes in an effort to lose weight. I was forced to play outside to play, bike ride, despite having asthma and severe allergies.” What do we see in Jordan’s story.
Nicole – The thing that sticks out to me is that I resonate with, is the limitations on what your future could be. She couldn’t be a singer. And I just remember, like I so clearly remember like especially like middle school, high school, even thinking about like the whole what do you want to be when you grow up thing. And like cycling through ideas. And there was a time that I really wanted to be like a pediatrician or something, I don’t even know. It doesn’t sound like me at all anymore. But I just I remember at the time thinking well that’s going to be weird if you’re a fat doctor. Like, you can’t do that one. And ultimately my first job after college, was a high school teacher. So I went to college to be a teacher. And I was just, I like walking back into a high school as a fat person was, I didn’t know if I’d be able to do that. So like my, for like one of my like really big diets that I lost a lot of weight on was early in college because I was like I can’t be a teacher if I’m fat ’cause they’ll never listen to me. And as a fat high school teacher there were some times when that became an issue. But that, by that point. So in college I discovered fat acceptance and learning to love my body. So by that point I had more of a sense of who I was and what was appropriate what wasn’t. But yeah that was a huge thing. What can I do in this body. And there was lots of limitations that other people would say or I would place it for myself.
Amanda – I think the thing that sticks out to me in Jordan’s story is the comparison with her cousin. In this case there was actually a medical issue that that prevented her cousin from being anything but who she was. I mean being super skinny, and that’s not a problem. The problem is when we compare people. I mean, we do it to ourselves right, we we say what do they have that I don’t have. But we also, oh my goodness. I try. I try so hard, I hope I have never compared bodies for my children. I compare behavior though. So I know that I do compare, I’m like look you’re sister’s doing this why can’t you obey like her. Making it clear that you are accepted the way that you are. One of my childhood difficulties was that I never felt like I fit in my family. I felt, felt on the outside. And some of that is just my personality. But some of that was because siblings automatically, or cousins you know whoever ever close family members, automatically are looking for, hey this is unfair. My kids constantly are like, you did this for so and so and not for me. So when I would analyze the treatment of, between my sister and me, my younger sister, I would say okay so why is she getting treated differently. Why, you know what my parents would praise her for the way that she ate, ’cause she just ate so slowly. I’m just, there’s nothing slow about me. I just like to be going. And so I felt ashamed by the way that I just like to eat fast. I like to read fast. I like to do everything fast. And there are definitely character development things that I’m learning to take things more slowly. But so when we’re automatically looking for, to our siblings. Like why do they get treated differently than I do and I’m not, we’re not blind like fat kids are not blind, they can see that oh my body is bigger than so and so’s. Is she getting treated better than me because of X Y Z. So to have that reinforced verbally to be like, why can’t you be like so-and-so who doesn’t eat very much. Or further isolates and others, makes you other-ed.
Nicole – Inside your own family.
Amanda – Oh one note on that is, being forced to play outside despite having asthma and severe allergies to pollen. That is a big deal.
Nicole – And fleetly ignore your actual health issues and for this aesthetic purpose of being thin. Yeah I mean that speaks even, that doesn’t stop. As you get older, medical issues get ignored. Everything can be solved by losing weight apparently. So.
Amanda – OK. Next story.
Nicole – This is someone left a comment on the Fat and Faithful Instagram, from Fayelle. She says, “all my childhood, I was told to hold on my stomach until I had kids that actually made a difference and how I looked. But I realized just a few months ago that it was actually physically impossible for me to casually walk around without involuntarily holding in my muscles. I have to intentionally relax them and even then as I move around other things my mind, I find that my abs have tensed back up again.” The thing that stuck me with this one is, there’s a lot of people who would read that and say, wow, success. And I think she even went on in her comment a little later say she’s kind of proud that she could retrain all of her muscles but also, oh my goodness look what I did to my body. Yeah like their muscles aren’t supposed to be tense 24/7 and especially not for, look a little bit slimmer, a couple inches slimmer.
Amanda – I mean so think about this. If you’re, if muscles in a different place of your body are tense all the time, we send you to a chiropractor or a massage therapist.
Nicole – Right, let’s work out those knots.
Amanda – Right. So we need to learn to carry our bodies with peace. Right. And that means I mean if you want to talk hold your stomach in great. Do it. Just know that you don’t have to. So this is, last night I watched Ted Talk by Amy Cuddy and she’s a social psychologist and she was talking about posturing and how our body language affects our psyche. A lot of alpha personalities are very open with their bodies their hands, their hands go up. They spread their legs, they sit. They take a commanding posture, called the power pose. And the weak poses, people who like hold their necks when they talk or cross their arms or just try to make themselves smaller, and that’s the language that she used, have different response psychically not psychically, psychologically. So the things that we do with our bodies affect our mental state and vice versa. She said, let me pull up the quote that I wrote down from what she said last night. She said “our bodies change our minds and our minds change our behavior, and our behavior changes our outcome.” So if we have in our mind that we need to be small. And I think that is a pretty common for women, that we are required to be small, that actually affects our psyches. That means that we’re going to try to impose less power in a room, we’re going to try to make sure that we are fitting in a specific space and that’s very limiting and it affects our our interactions with the world and not just in a, I’m going to be a small feminine thing way, but we don’t take up the space that our personalities need. And so it just made me think of, I knew we were recording this episode today. So I was thinking about how, as I have developed in accepting my body I have started just being way more open. I was always very confident. But but just being like this is my body, I’m not going to apologize for it. I’m not going to tense up my muscles to suck in my gut. I’d rather spin those, that energy that I have doing something else. And so when we’re children, just being aware that our kids need to be able to be fully themselves, no matter what that looks like.
Nicole – Yeah I don’t have specific memories but just the general, I was always like crossing my arms, or like pulling my arms in close to myself. Just really trying to take up as little space as possible or try to fit into the space. I remember in middle school I guess, middle school and high school, when the desks changed and the chairs were attached to the desks. Like, getting into the classroom earlier because there was a few desks that people had managed to bend the chairs back on. So there’s a little more space in between the chair and the desk in front of you. And just trying to get there so that I can get into that seat. And never actually have to say that’s what I was doing. And make it obvious, but just to be able to find the spaces where I could fit without having to hold myself uncomfortably. And always be on the lookout for that.
Amanda – For some of our listeners who have not had to endure being physically constrained into a tight space without choosing that, I don’t know people get into roller coaster apparatuses that squeeze you into tight spaces. When you sit in a seat like in school, and it, you don’t fit in it, the whole time you’re not able to fully engage in your lesson, right. Because it’s either, you’re in pain or you’re uncomfortable or you’re self-conscious like so many, so many aspects of that are limiting. And that also comes to clothing too.
Nicole – Yeah it just becomes like this dull kind of thing that’s always with you. Like I got pretty good at tuning it out but it’s just kind of always there. Like to use the biblical example, the thorn and the flesh, you know it’s just there. You learn to live your life around it and to accommodate for it and to make adjustments to make it as bearable as possible.
Amanda – Yeah. The next story comes from my friend who preferred to stay anonymous. And we talked on the phone so I’m gonna be summarizing her story and pointing out some things that I, that I thought were worthy of talking about. So this is my friend and we’ve been friends for a long time. But she talked about just the ostracism of being the fat kid. And that her friends’ parents even would do things that let her know that they know. They knew she was fat and that it was something to be changed about her. She shared a story with me, that she went over to a friend’s house and they went to a restaurant where they serve just health food, when she was staying the night with her friends and then, and then when they got home the parents were like let’s do some activity. And my friend said she remembered it being fun and enjoying like going out to eat and then doing activities. Then she wondered later, was that because I was there. Did they change… like why were they saying, what were they saying by taking me to this restaurant and getting me to, you know climb, to do stairs together as a kid. She also told me about a trip she went on to Europe and being the fat person on the trip and she was in junior high, that people, I mean Europeans stared at her. She says she didn’t feel rejection from the people on her, in her group but that she was ogled, ogled as a fat person. So she would get comments from adults. She remembers that she wanted to be a majorette, to be a twirler in the band and the band director had a conversation with her mom that was basically we don’t do fat majorettes here. Like she was on Fen-Phen in sixth grade.
Nicole – For those who don’t know Fen-Phen was a diet drug that got pulled off the market because it caused heart attacks.
Amanda – She remembers being on a retreat with her with like a church program and one of the leaders, who was a mom, and one of the other girls came to her to talk about her weight. You know and to the point where she just didn’t, there was no place to feel safe. I’m sharing all of these specific instances because sometimes people think that fat people are being overly sensitive, but these things, this is just a sampling of things that happened to this one friend that I have. The school cafeteria where she was, there was a section for the teachers and the section for the students and it was like you could go back and get a seconds and, whatever it was a small school. And she said she would always get seconds or thirds. And she knew that other people were looking at her like she didn’t need to eat more. But her friends accepted her and so she was like, whatever I want to eat more so I’m gonna eat more. One time she was walking back up to get more food and her favorite teacher shouted across the cafeteria, No. Like said her name and said no about her going back to get more food.
Nicole – Wow.
Amanda – And just the I mean any kid in junior high or high school, for a teacher to intervene like that, no matter your size, I think would be embarrassing. And so for it to come just at a tender place of course couldn’t that have been more discreet. If you feel the need to, to police what other people are doing with their own bodies, couldn’t have been more discreet as opposed to publicly shaming.
Nicole – Yeah, the thing her story made me think of specifically the trip to Europe, when she was in sixth grade, and going on field trips and class trips. I remember when I was a freshman, one of my classes at high school took a long weekend trip, a field trip. And I don’t even remember really why we were going. But they went and like lived on a ship in New England for the weekend and was like the ship’s crew. It’s like an old like sailing vessel kind of thing. And I didn’t go because my family couldn’t afford that kind of trip. But I remember like I was sad I couldn’t go. I wanted to go. But I remember knowing that it was probably better anyways because something in me just knew, that like ships were cramped. And had tight quarters and like narrow passageways and things like that. Or you’d have to climb up into the, to do all the sail lines and climb up into the wren’s nest or whatever and they did all those kinds of things. And so I stayed. I didn’t go. And when they came back and they were showing pictures and stuff and I was just looking at like, how small the openings were to get down like below deck. And all the things they had to do. It’s like I knew that if I had gone, and who knows what actually would have been the case. But it in my mind as a 15 year old I was like I wouldn’t have fit that there anyway, even if we could have afforded that trip. So just the sense of being outside of your classmates and you can’t really participate and no one else is thinking about that. No one else is trying to figure out if it’s accessible to you or even asking those questions.
Amanda – Hey listeners we’re going to continue this conversation in the next episode. So make sure you check out Part 2 on Being the Fat Kid.
Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.
Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful an ongoing conversation about faith politics and culture as they relate to fatness.
Amanda – Welcome to season 3 episode 1 of Fat and Faithful. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I’m here with my co-host . . .
Nicole – This is J. Nicole Morgan. Hi everybody.
Amanda – And we’re so glad to be back. Nicole, It has been a bit. It has been a minute.
Nicole – It’s been a while. I don’t know… May to, it’s now October so however many months that is like, 7?
Amanda – June, July, August, September. No, just five.
Nicole – Just five. Well OK it felt longer. Super excited.
Amanda – Yeah, this is the longest we’ve gone without recording since we started last summer.
Nicole – We just both had really busy summers which is what we’re gonna talk about today and everything that’s been going on.
Amanda – Yeah, so what’s been up with you? A little bit of big news.
Nicole – Yes, so my book is officially out in the world as of August 1st. So that’s out there. It’s doing great. I had like a launch party which was super fun. And had like a big huge cake version of my book that a friend made me.
Amanda – So nice.
Nicole – That was also delicious. So that was fabulous. It was great to just celebrate it that way. Been getting some good feedback. So I’ve been really excited to launch that and it’s to be officially out there in the world. And what about you? How’d your summer go?
Amanda – Well it was really busy, I got a new job started working full time. And along with editing my book and it’s almost done.
Nicole – Yay!
Amanda – Thank you, I have a few more or, I just need to read it one more time. They sent me the galley proofs yesterday. So just gonna to proofread and then it’ll be printed at the end of October on like physical copies. I’ll get those. But the book releases December 6th. Which, I am very excited about, you talked about your launch party, so I’ve started planning mine.
Nicole – I saw some of your little like launch party decorations. It’s super fun to plan.
Amanda – I’m so excited. It is a strange feeling to be planning something that’s this big a deal. Like.
Nicole – Yeah.
Amanda – Oh it feels that perhaps this is not an appropriate comparison, but it feels like I’m planning a wedding reception.
Nicole – I had similar thoughts and I’ve never been able to do that. So I was very much enjoying having a party. And It’s also, I think you know writing and podcasting are such. . .. I don’t know the right word for it but our audiences are often people that we don’t see in person on a regular basis. And so launch parties are very geographically situated. So being able to celebrate and to share with people that you know but might not be as connected to our work – that was really cool for me. For people who know me and love me and you know just outside of the specific work – and to be able to celebrate that with them was really a neat thing.
Amanda – That’s awesome.
Nicole – And I wish I had teleportation and I can bring everyone who’s listening right now to my party on your party.
Amanda – Agreed. I know I’ve been like “oh I wish Nicole could be at my party.” I really wanted to be at yours. But we live a couple thousand miles apart so…
Nicole – We do and time is a thing.
Amanda – One day we will. You know, listeners, we’ve never met in person.
Nicole – We haven’t.
Amanda – We formed this friendship online so we are very thankful for the interwebs.
Nicole – Yes.
Amanda – One thing was. One thing I’m really excited about is that my launch party is on the book release day December 6.
Nicole – Oh fun. What Day of the week is that?
Amanda – It’s a Thursday. It’s not practical, but um.
Nicole – Hey, do you.
Amanda – Well it’s in the middle of Advent and so it’s the Feast of St. Nicholas which is super fun because one, it’s a feast in the middle of a fasting season.
Nicole – Is Advent a fasting season? How did I not know this
Amanda – It is. Well you’re Protestant. So I won’t hold it against you.
Nicole – OK. I just figured Christmas, feast all the time but it’s not Christmas, it’s Advent.
Amanda – So it’s the four weeks leading up until Christmas and it resets us.It’s, Joy to the World as kind of an advent hymn, “Let every heart prepare Him room”, so we’re preparing for the arrival. “Oh come oh come Emmanuel. ..” That, that, that, longing that hunger for God and then you launch in to a 12 day feast which is from.
Nicole – Twelve days of Christmas.
Amanda – Twelve Days of Christmas, but we’ll probably talk about that more as that approaches. But what Is exciting, is that I did not set my launch date, but the Feast of Saint Nicholas. He is the most celebrated fat saint.
Nicole – So amazing.
Amanda – Isn’t that amazing? And like all bodies are good bodies. So I am, I am having fun. I’m gonna make it a St. Nicholas Day party and my book release. So I’m very excited.
Nicole – That is amazing. That’s so cool. Well besides our books this summer, I know we’re both also on other podcasts Who did you interview with?
Amanda – I was on an episode of The Love Food podcast with Julie Duffy Dillon. She’s a no diet dietitian who focuses on intuitive eating and also PCOS which, her podcast is amazing, she has two podcasts. But you should check her out. Julie Duffy Dillon and we talked about your body telling your story and how that relates to food.
Nicole – Yeah so I was able to speak with I think with, three and I hope I’m not forgetting anyone. So one was Eating with Grace, you can look that up. I really enjoyed talking about that one. Another one was called Can I Say This at Church and so the whole podcast deals with just like various issues that people might find impolite to talk about at church and so we talked with, with him there. And then another one it’s a brand new podcast, it’s called Fierce and Lovely, with an author named Beth Bruno. And talked with her a bit about just all these same topics, body image and what that looks like and what it means to be fierce in loving our bodies but also lovely which is the name of your book.
Amanda – So yeah I like that, I like that word. And I’m going to go ahead and apologize. I have strep throat right now. Listeners hopefully by the time you listen to this I will not have it anymore because that will be a while. But I’m, you’re going to hear me coughing a lot and I’m about to go into coughing.
Nicole – All bodies are good bodies but sometimes they hurt, right?
Amanda – It has definitely been a season of learning to lean into my message that all bodies are good bodies that weak and sick bodies are good even in their, even in their limitations, trying to learn to rest and have relationship right. So if I say that the purpose of my body is relationship and not perfection or health. Yeah, that’s a little harder when, all the sudden you’re like, oh but.
Nicole – I just can’t move!
Amanda – I want a well body. So it’s that, already but not yet, tension.
Nicole – Yeah it’s a lot to learn, grace for the journey.
Amanda – Thanks. Well we’re going to get into discussing an article that went a little viral a few weeks ago. But before we do that we want to give you our resource recommendation of the episode that our group on Facebook, All Bodies Are Good Bodies. It’s facebook.com/groups/allbodiesaregoodbodies. Nicole tell us a little bit about the group.
Nicole – Yeah, so it has grown a lot since we left the podcast last in May. There’s almost 300 members and Amanda and I were just chatting before we got started recording about how fun and encouraging it is to watch people interact with each other. The members of the group just do a really good job of being vulnerable and asking questions that are hard or maybe a little uncomfortable to ask and then encouraging each other towards loving their bodies and accepting their bodies as good and made in the image of God. And so seeing that community is really encouraging to me personally.
Amanda – Yeah. And like any community it’s not all rainbows and bubblegum. We have good conversations and sometimes we get a little prickly with each other just because we’re learning, right? We’re learning how to talk about bodies in a way that honors all bodies as good bodies. And sometimes that is uncomfortable.
Nicole – Yeah and it’s a private Facebook group I believe, so people may be able to see you’re a member but your conversations and your comments are private to those actually in the group.
Amanda – Right.
Nicole – Which is helpful.
Amanda – And we have a great team of moderators. Nicole and I are the main admins but we’ve brought on a team of, I think four or five people who are just really invested in in this conversation. And it’s one of the best things that I’m enjoying right now my life is The All Bodies group. So you should head on over there and check it out.
Nicole – Yes. Thank you for creating that group, Amanda. I think it started as kind of like a book input group and then grew and you just really shaped that. So thank you for that gift, it’s great.
Amanda – Thanks, Nicole!
Nicole – A great place to be on the internet.
Amanda – I know. So one of my big passions is hospitality. And when I say hospitality I’m not talking like just like the hotel industry obviously. Although that’s part of it. I love staying at hotels. But creating a space where people can be themselves and especially for people of size. We’ve been told so often that we have to fit in a certain space whether that be a physical space or emotional space or even an online presence where there’s not, there’s not room to ask these hard questions without people criticizing us for being fat or for asking questions about, is it OK to be fat. Is it ok not to live in diet culture like 100%. We want to be free from that. And so I am so thankful that the group has turned out to be a place where we can see the Holy Spirit making, making room for us to be ourselves through technology. It’s not something I ever thought I would say about technology but I am so glad I was wrong.
Nicole – Yeah it’s it’s a great place to be. I hope you join, who are listening. Go search us out.
Amanda – Yeah. Search us out make sure you answer the questions that pop up when you-.
Nicole – We won’t approve you if you don’t.
Amanda – Right. So it just makes basically we just need to know you’re not a troll.
Nicole – Pretty much.
Amanda – All right. Nicole what’s next on the agenda?
Nicole – OK so we are going to chat about an article today that went a little bit viral this summer on Huffington Post. And it’s an article called Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong. And it was written by a man named Michael Hobbes. So the article is super long, so we’re not gonna like read through it, as we’ve done with articles before. But we’d like to just kind of chat about it in general. Amanda, do you remember like reading it or your initial thoughts when you first saw it or anything like that?
Amanda – So I got on Facebook the day that it came out which was September 19th. So it’s been a couple of weeks and I had all these notifications!
Nicole – Same!
Amanda – Of “this is an amazing article”, “these are things Amanda has been saying”, et cetera. And number one. So this this this just made me feel very loved because I’m like oh wow people have been listening to what I’m saying. And most of the people who tagged me were not fat people. They were you know what I would call average sized people who I felt like for the first time, were being vocal about the anti fat bias in our society. And I think they’ve always been friends. But to have people step up as allies and be like, “hey”, that was really encouraging. So that, I started reading it with that feeling of, well I hope this article is good I’m encouraged that my friends are talking about this. What about you?
Nicole – Yes a similar experience to logging on to Facebook to a million notifications about it. That day that it was published I was in all day meetings for work, and didn’t look at my phone once I think for like 10 hours. And so I logged on it was just Twitter, Facebook, everyone had been tagging me and I read the article. I don’t think I read it actually till the next day and I read it. It was just, there was kind of these two things. One, exciting that, like it was out there and that this article was so popular and that it was getting views and feedback and affirmation and that people were seeing it and seemed to resonate. But also there is this like nothing in the article was new to me. Like some of the stories, yes. But in terms of the facts and the health studies and things like that that he presented, it’s work that the fat acceptance community has been doing for a very long time. And so there is that mix of “OK this is great, I’m so glad. But this isn’t new. We’ve already been telling you this”, like is this actually going to change anything. In the article, the author of the article, is a thin man I believe a white man. Not sure. And I saw some of his stuff on his Twitter and he’s, he’s acknowledged some of those same things. That part of his thin privilege is what allows him to write it without as much criticism as fat people get when they say the same thing. And so there’s some of that tension there and just kind of accepting that that’s part of the reality of how, how information gets communicated in our world and who gets believed and trusted and elevated and who doesn’t. So yeah and just kinda hold both of those things. It’s a good article and I’m glad it’s out there.
Amanda – One of the things I’m very, I was very touched by, was the photography that accompanies the piece. They were very thoughtful. I’m reading, this is the note about the photographs. It says, “So many images you see in articles about obesity strip fat people of their strength and personality. According to a recent study only 11 percent of large people depicted in news reports were wearing professional clothing. Nearly 60 percent were headless torsos. So we asked our interview subjects to take full creative control of the photos in this piece. This is how they want to present themselves to the world.” That is amazing. And the photos are so lovely. Oh my word.
Nicole – Yeah they are, they’re great and just the self representation and being able to decide, how your body is presented as a gift that we don’t often get.
Amanda – It’s I mean you know the struggle, excuse me, when we look for stock photos and even the people who choose stock photos for our articles or even our book covers. I had to go through a couple of iterations to find one that included, to find representation of fat bodies that are joyful, competent professional with heads.
Nicole – Right? Smiling.
Amanda – Yeah. And I think that tide is shifting. As we we create awareness of the issue so, I’m really thankful for the piece. Yeah.
Nicole – I remember the first time I had an article published on this years ago and the editor was like, “I don’t know what picture to use.” She’s like I can’t I can’t find one, that was like a positive representation of a fat body.
Amanda – Was this your Christianity Today piece?
Nicole – No. This is before that a smaller piece. But yeah it was just it was really difficult and I don’t even remember what we ended up in, like a silhouette. I think that was like some kind of like, I don’t even remember. But it was a fat person or the outline of a fat person who didn’t look sad and so like we’re going with it. Good, found one.
Amanda – Well I remember when I, listeners, if you haven’t listened to the first couple of episodes back in season one I’ll recap. Nicole and I met because I was writing an article about thin privilege and in the church particularly, well my online search yielded the result of, God Loves My Fat Body As It Is that Nicole wrote for Christianity Today. And I remember I can still even without looking back at the article, the photo the featured photo in the article, is a woman standing in a road or a path. A fat woman, and it’s fall I think, she’s wearing fall clothing, and I thought that was you, Nicole.
Nicole – A lot of people did, it looks similar to me but it’s not me.
Amanda – It’s funny when when I reached out to you to ask if I could interview you. And then we Skyped. I was like, oh that’s not Nicole. Your image being different from that picture. But it’s just so interesting because I never thought it could be a stock photo, because it was a fat woman with personality. Like she’s not smiling in the photo. She’s looking seriously. But I just assumed it was you, because I’d never really seen a stock photo like that.
Nicole – I know they did, she did a really good job editing on that one, of finding that photo. I loved it too.
Amanda – Was it Kate Shellnut?
Nicole – Yes. And I don’t actually know she chose the photo. But yes that was the editor of the article.
Amanda – Kate and her team. Way to go Kate Shellnut. Yeah. So what about the article, what do you think made it go viral.
Nicole – You know. I mean, oh goodness analyzing the psychology of everybody. I mean it’s a well written. It’s got all the, it does move you. There’s lots there. I don’t know, what do you think about why this particular one?
Amanda – So I’m, I’m looking at the first couple of paragraphs and it’s about scurvy. Which is not something I would automatically connect with fat bodies right? What do we know about scurvy, it’s prevented by eating citrus and it happened to sailors. So but I love what, what’s the author’s name?
Nicole – Michael Hobbes yeah.
Amanda – That you just found out by kind of trial and error that if you had lemons, limes, and oranges then scurvy would be preventable or treatable. And when when the crew was given, they were doing a study where part of the crew was given citrus and the other part wasn’t. And the results were so clear because the ones who ate fruit improved so quickly they were able to help care for the other group. Right. So but the findings were published and then no one really paid attention for 50 years. And I think, this is a line from this kind of myopia results through repeats throughout history. Is it my-OP-ia? My-O-pia? And so he has this built in to his article of, things we’ve known scientifically that we haven’t put into practice for generations. And how is it affecting the people who are missing out on that but looking at science dieting, doesn’t work, it’s harmful to your health to, to diet. The studies are showing that but people don’t want to hear it because it contradicts the narrative of what we are being fed. No pun intended.
Nicole – When you look at it. So he uses this example of the scurvy. And he does a brief paragraph on seat belts and they both have this resistance to implementing what actually works because of money. And this idea that it was cheaper to try and treat scurvy this other way that didn’t work at all. But it costs less money. So at least we feel like we’re doing something. And then the seat belts, let’s see cars in the 60s used asbestos… It didn’t start banning things that they knew were harmful or forcing things that they knew were helpful for quite a long time. And I’m sure like, cost was a factor there. And that’s the thing we hear often when talking about practice and health is like how much fat people cost the medical industry, as if our bodies are a drain on the system. And so I think there’s some of that same resistance there which I think it’s interesting that he used these ideas. Like somehow, right now for most people, like fat bodies aren’t allowed what their bodies need in terms of resources or investment in our economy as a whole. And so just pondering that is a thing that can get to me, that you know it’s those bodies aren’t worth the certain that there’s a limit to how much my body is allowed to cost myself or the society.
Amanda – That commodification right? Feminism talks a lot about the objectification of women, as it should. We are humans and not objects that exist for someone else’s use, we are created in the image of God. But there’s, my friend Marion Hill put it this way. He says, “weight discrimination is the last acceptable bias that we have.” We think it’s OK to commodify fat bodies. There’s, there’s this story that that there’s a better body to have, a thin healthy body, or a muscular healthy body. So we look for the details. We look for studies that confirm our anti fat bias. So.
Nicole – Yeah I mean I modify that quote to say one of the last, because I think there are other bodies that are still definitely people, are socially acceptable to mock in many ways. But fat bodies are definitely a group of people that, we’re society at whole thinks it’s, who are good, to mock us or to discriminate against us, that it will somehow shame us into being thin.
Amanda – I would say that in the most progressive even though of circumstances, that he’s right. Because I think there’s a lot of awareness of disability discrimination and gender orientation discrimination. But again it’s not a competition. I mean it’s not a competition.
Nicole – No I would agree it’s, it’s fairly common to be in very progressive spaces and for people who are very, very intent on honoring bodies of various identities that they still leave out fat bodies. It’s common. So I would agree in that way.
Amanda – Have you have you been watching The Good Place.
Nicole – I do. I’m watching it, yes.
Amanda – I’ve been reading a lot about it. Mayfield has been writing about it and I love the show. But the thing is, they have represented so much diversity except there are no fat bodies in the show.
Nicole – That reminds me. The other day I think it was yesterday I was scrolling through Facebook and there was an image associated with some event that’s local. And it had a bunch of different arms with raised fists still like a feminist thing and one of the arms was fat and I like, just stopped and stared at it for like a good couple of minutes. I’m like that is so rare. Like all of the arms had different various skin tones and like types of like, jewelry and you can tell they’re trying to represent a wide range of people. And they included fatness. And I’m like that’s so rare.
Amanda – It’s like someone remembering what your favorite candy is but like on a much bigger scale.
Nicole – Like, I exist.
Amanda – Not just what kind of candy I like but that I’m here. Turning back to the article I’m going to read a couple of sentences and then connect it to what’s going on right now. “Forty five percent of adults say they’re preoccupied with their weight. Some or all of the time, an eleven point rise since 1990. Nearly half of 3 to 6 year old girls say they worry about being fat. The emotional costs are incalculable. I have never written a story where so many of my sources cried during interviews where they double and triple check that I would not reveal their names where they shook with anger describing their interaction with doctors and strangers in their own families.” So what is the value of our emotions? Is our emotional health on par with our physical health in in the public discourse. And this is particularly relevant to me thinking about, as we’re recording, the Senate confirmations for Kavanaugh are happening actually today and just thinking about the, the emotion I have seen people express on both sides. Those in favor and those against his confirmation. But I’ve seen so much of it reduced to, that people who are against his confirmation are just being are quote just being emotional as if emotional cost of our public conversations should not matter.
Nicole – Yeah I think there is that underlying assumption. Even if it’s subconscious, that there are some things so important that your emotions and your mental health don’t matter. Your feelings don’t matter. And I say that would be true in the discourse around these Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. And then I think it’s also true when people who are anti fat talk about fat bodies. You often hear that shaming works. That shaming makes people lose weight so therefore it should be employed. And so mental health and like our holistic health of who we are as an entire person, is sacrificed on this idea that somehow we’ll be healthy if we’re skinnier which isn’t even true. Yeah. So yeah I think that’s a key thing.
Amanda – So I was raised to be very thinking oriented even though I am very much a feeler and I saw that come out just even at the beginning of this podcast. So our feelings towards this article are very indicative of our personality types and pardon me, listeners but I’m going to talk about the any enneagram. So if you, if you’re not on board, just, just hit that that little skip button if you want to not hear about the enneagram. But for those of you who don’t know, the enneagram is a personality profiling tool that has nine different personality types and they’re based quantified, not quantified, identified through numbers. And so like a 9 as the peacemaker, the 1 is the perfectionist. The two is the helper or befriend-er. The three is the achieve,r the four is the artist, the five is the analyst researcher, the six is the loyalist, seven is the adventurer, the eight is the challenger OK. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it what do you mean, I could just recite those from memory with no problem. No I was not reading any notes, I’m just really into the enneagram. I am a to 2, the helper, the befriend-er, the feeler. Not that other numbers don’t feel, but I’m very much concerned with how others perceive me, and how, how I can help other people. And so reading this article my response is like, I’m being seen. People are, people are coming alongside of me. I have friends on this journey. It makes me feel known and it’s not a perfect article but it’s still really great. Calling out the greatness it. Nicole on the other hand, you’re a 5.
Nicole – I’m now laughing thinking about how I, what I said about it.
Amanda – So what did you say?
Nicole – I was like well it’s great, but we really knew all these facts.
Amanda – Which is such a 5 thing to say!
Nicole – Cool, guy got attention. But, where have you been?
Amanda – Because you’re like, this is data and we’ve been saying this, we’ve been doing the research and reporting the data for years.
Nicole – I’m like, welcome to reality everyone.
Amanda – It’s so funny. Nicole and I have a message, our message on Facebook, back and forth just about life. And after having come across the enneagram and learning that Nicole is a 5 and knowing that I’m a 2, I’m like oh my gosh we’re a great team. Because I have all the feels and she has all the thinks.
Nicole – So look we got something for everyone out there, so, good to go.
Amanda – Let’s, let’s talk about this motif and I don’t know if motif’s the right word. But he says in the, the article “my interest in this issue is slightly more than journalistic. Growing up my mother’s weight was the uncredited co-star of every family drama, the obvious unspoken reason why she never got out of the car when she picked me up from school, why she disappeared from the family photo album for years at a time, why she spent hours making meatloaf and then sat beside us eating a bowl of carrots.” The idea of an uncredited co-star in every family drama, that line. Wow.
Nicole – Yeah. And it just it makes me sad for people who are still hiding from life because they think they’re not allowed to participate. And I totally place the blame for that on our society as a whole rather than the individuals. I wish I could let people know that you’re allowed to live your life in the body you have right now.
Amanda – That’s our slogan, right, to it’s the heart of our motto, slogan not sure the best… Our vision statement for the podcast, Loving God incarnate and our neighbors..
Nicole – Our neighbor’s body as our own.
Amanda – That something like that. We have it on our notes, right?
Nicole – Yes and our mission is to love God incarnate and our neighbor’s body as our own.
Amanda – Yes there we go.
Nicole – We know what we’re doing.
Amanda – The truth is anybody can do a podcast guys.
Nicole – Just get a mic and record yourself.
Amanda – Pretty much but with that we are so consumed by fear about our bodies and a lot of it is not irrational fear. A lot of it is people have been cruel and to be able to come to a place where you say you know what, for the sake of God for God’s sake and for my sake for my neighbor’s sake I’ve got to get the right understanding and see myself the way that God sees me so that I can live out and bring his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven where all bodies are good bodies. The author’s mother said, “the bigger way my weight affected my life was that I waited to do things because I thought fat people couldn’t do them.” She got her master’s degree at thirty eight her PhD at fifty five. “I avoided so many activities where I thought my weight would discredit me.”
Nicole – And I think that a lot of our stories. Like I got into fat acceptance in college so fairly young. But I still often think like if I had known who I was, if I hadn’t been so focused on just like my size in high school like what choices I’ve made that were different than the ones that I did. And I’m very happy with my life, I have a good life but I often wonder, what would have been different if I had been ok with myself and confident about myself from an early age. And I think there would have been differences.
Amanda – Yeah. Even just the emotional exhaustion.
Nicole – Career choices I think there would’ve been a lot of things that I would have explored or pursued that I didn’t or that I chose not to.
Amanda – High school for me was very fraught with weight issues. I was not fat in high school but I thought that I was. I would have passed the chair test. Well I don’t know if pass fail. I would have fit in any chair. Now I do not and I’ve always dreamed of teaching big audiences. Like that’s I just love teaching, and I love performing right. That’s that’s a gift that God has given me. The bigger that I’ve gotten though, imagining myself on a stage as a fat woman has has been one of the struggles. I’m a dreamer. Like, I have to dream it. I have to see it. And then I can go do it. But there just are not a lot of fat women on stages. Yeah. And I…
Nicole – Yep. And the ones that are are often, their body is the center of why they’re on the stage. They don’t get to have their stories.
Amanda – Yeah well it’s can we have a show that, and not even a show. But can we have a person, can we be the person that says I’m here. Well you know I know that you do non-profit work and I am, I’m the new job that I’ve gotten is in the nonprofit field as well. And so meeting people, talking to people, teaching about the different things that we are working for. I’m still, I still even after years of, of loving my body and learning to accept it. I still am afraid of what people are gonna think of me. When I talk about something that’s not bodies right. I can talk about bodies all day long. All bodies are good bodies. This is what you need to do and I’m a witness to the fact that.
Nicole – Yeah but when you’re just being professional and whatever your day job it is, like is anyone going to believe me? Do I look like a slob? Yeah.
Amanda – Right. Does my weight discredit me?
Nicole – We should and entire episode on like professionalism and body size and how that intersects thing.
Amanda – It’s a real thing. Well we’ve been talking for forty two minutes.
Nicole – I know this was supposed to be like our catch up, we won’t chat for long. Welcome to Season 3. But we like to talk so. But we’re going to have an exciting season for y’all. We’ve been talking about notes, we’re going to be interviewing some people. We also hope to expand the season to talking about, talking with people who are loving their neighbors while in other types of marginalized bodies. So expanding that because our mission is to, love God incarnate and our neighbors body as our own and that extends to more than just other fat bodies. So how can we be better at loving all of our neighbors. So we’re gonna learn from some other people in that regard as well. Yeah.
Amanda – Just a reminder. Seek out our Facebook group, facebook.com/groups/allbodiesaregoodbodies and request to join and answer the questions, we’d love to have you there. Contributing to the conversation, asking any questions you have about bodies, and it’s all while we are people of faith, it is open for people of all faith, any faith, no faith. You are welcome.
Nicole – Absolutely. Well thank you so much for joining us today. We’d love for you to continue to engage with us online. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Fat and Faithful and join the discussion group on Facebook at All Bodies are Good Bodies. Please take a minute to rate and review the podcast on iTunes and share this episode of social media using the hashtags, fatandfaithful or allbodiesaregoodbodies. This helps us reach more people with our mission to love God incarnate and our neighbors; bodies as our own.
Amanda – We’re so thankful that you joined us today have a great week.
Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.
– Welcome to Fat and Faithful , an ongoing conversation about faith, politics and culture, as they relate to fatness.
Amanda – Hey everyone, Amanda here. Nicole is not with us today, I am interviewing a guest, Julie Duffy Dillon. She and I talk about intuitive eating, what it means to find food peace, and how that connects to being a person of faith. I’m really excited to share this with you guys. So once you’re finished, or right now, if you can go, rate and review this podcast on iTunes, that would be really helpful to us, because the more people that rate and review, the more people see when they’re searching for things about fatness and faith. Thanks so much! And here’s today’s episode.
Amanda – Welcome to this episode of Fat and Faithful, I’m here with Julie Duffy Dillon, of the Love Food podcast, one of my absolute favorite shows to help me in my journey towards food peace.
Julie is a registered dietitian who discovered that diets didn’t work for her clients. She set out to find a better way. That brought her to intuitive eating and Health at Every Size, also called HAES, Mindful Eating and Joyful Movement. And she uses her wisdom and insight, not only in her practice but also on her podcast, which has an epistolary format, which I love. It’s written as a letter, a listener writes a letter to food, with a questioner’s struggle, and then Julie and usually a guest discuss the letter and then we hear food’s response.
Here on Fat and Faithful, it’s our mission to encourage our listeners and ourselves, to love God incarnate and to love our neighbor’s body as our own. Finding peace with food is an integral part of loving one’s own body, so that we’re more available for relationship, which doesn’t happen with restriction.
Nicole and I wanted to give our listeners and ourselves a better understanding of food peace through intuitive eating, and that is why we invited Julie to the table.
Julie I’m so glad to have you on the show today, welcome to Fat and Faithful!
Julie – Thank you Amanda, you know it was so great to hear that introduction, that was so lovely, so I appreciate the kind words. And I am honored to be here and I’m so glad to know about your podcast because I think it’s filling a really important need.
Amanda – Well thank you, we’re excited to be able to talk about faith in relationship to bodies but we know that, not all our listeners are people of faith so wherever you’re at in your journey, I hope that you can learn from what Julie’s gonna teach us on intuitive eating. So let’s talk about, in your experience as a dietitian, why is dieting harmful?
Julie – Well, what I’ve come to appreciate from research and also clinical observation, you know, sitting next to people who are trying to make peace with food and also trying to find ways to promote health that’s long term, is, I basically came to this conclusions, that, diets don’t work. And not only do they not work, there’s risk with dieting, you know it’s not just this kind of decision that has little meaning to it, and as a Health At Every Size informed practitioner, something that appreciate is that, a person’s size is not something that’s necessarily going to determine how healthy they are. And as a Health At Every Size practitioner, I also appreciate that, when someone’s at the statistical, which is always a hard word for me to say, statistical extremes of the weight spectrum, we are pretty sure that weight is something that can be harmful. Yet when someone is at those extremes, you know, those extremes, I try to be like sound in my research, but I can’t say the words. When someone is at those extremes, we still don’t have an option for a person to lose weight in a way that’s gonna help most people and promote health long term. And what I always tell people, especially dietitians, who are struggling with this conversation, is even if someone comes to you and wants to lose weight just because they want to look differently or because maybe they’re at a very high weight, and you have to let them know, like they need to have informed consent before they start a diet, because it is something that we know is harmful. So like, starting a diet, you basically need to tell them, well it’s probably not going to work, it’s probably gonna lower your resting metabolic rate, so basically, the amount of food that you eat to maintain your weight at whatever weight your body wants to be at, is gonna be lower than it was if you had never tried a diet. And also it’s gonna increase your risk for things like high cholesterol, high triglycerides, depression, you’re pretty much gonna have a lower self concept as per the research, you know there’s like all these things that we’ve been able to connect with dieting. And also like, dieting predicts weight gain. So like, there’s so much to just be aware of, so yeah, it’s harmful, and they don’t work, so we need to find another way. That’s where intuitive eating helped me in my career and also how I relate to food, it helped me to have a language to do that. And it’s, I think there’s 85+ studies now on intuitive eating and how it helps promote health and how it’s being established and the research as an option, so um, and more being done everyday. So it’s an option that I think is really important and, I don’t know as I’m saying all this stuff, there’s often things that people will say to me whenever I talk about intuitive eating, like well, if I do intuitive eating, does that mean that I’m just letting myself go? And I always think about how, intuitive eating is really this, it’s not a passive process, it’s a really active process to stay engaged with one’s body and also to be aware of messages of like, shame, and judgement and to try to move away from that type of paradigm. So it’s not letting yourself go, and it’s really something that you have to work towards and acceptance is not being a gluttonous kind of couch potato, it’s actually the opposite, you know.
Amanda – Right well it’s interesting, you use the word gluttonous because that gets thrown around in faith communities when it comes to bodies and we did an episode a couple weeks ago on what is gluttony? In looking at the scriptural backing towards gluttony, it’s actually connected towards consumption that harms your neighbor instead of just eating a lot. So, listeners if you wanna check that episode out, it’s actually 2 part episode because we talked a long time about it. Please do that. So Julie what I’m hearing you say is, dieting doesn’t bring about the desired results and intuitive eating helps people get to a place of listening to their bodies.
Julie – Yeah, I think the assumption is, is if I just do the diet correctly, and keep doing it, then it’ll work. And what we know from our research so far is that, even if someone does the diet correctly and continues on it forever, they’re still gonna regain the weight and one third to two thirds of people will regain more, so, so yeah, I feel like intuitive eating is this kind of, I don’t know, a gently kind of in your face like, hey it’s not you that’s failing, it’s the diet that doesn’t work so don’t think you’re doing it wrong, like you got the wrong tool.
Amanda – And on your website you have a saying that you alluded to earlier, that intuitive eating is not letting yourself go, it’s letting yourself be. I love that so much.
Julie – Yeah it’s an important one because I think there’s a lot of shame with addressing, where’s the source of this judgement and shame coming from and saying, you know what? It really isn’t my fault. And I think a lot of people hear from maybe family or in their community that they should really be working hard on their health, and that if you’re not working hard on it then you’re letting yourself go. And that’s why I feel like intuitive eating is often just thrown out there like, well you’re just letting yourself go and when we let ourselves be, I think, what I connect to personally and from a lot of my clients too is, when you let yourself be, I think you can help quiet the noise. And I often picture, like if we live in a, I live in a pretty small southern town, but if I even went further out in the country, and there were no like, city lights, you know I could see all the stars in the sky, in the nighttime sky. But then if I went to like New York City, or Hong Kong, all the lights and everything, I wouldn’t see as many stars, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there. I just can’t, there’s all these things blocking it. And I picture dieting and body hate and this misuse of things like you said, gluttony, I think that’s basically the smog and the city lights keeping us from what is already there. And so when we can just be, I think we can connect with our faith, we can connect with our body’s wisdom and the answers are there. And I don’t think we, we shouldn’t have to have dietitians, I feel like, we have our own in there that’s letting us know what we need. So yeah, when you just let yourself be, I think it connects to all of our strengths which for many of us will be our faith, and also the like, innate kind of processes in our body, like our physiology that just lets us know, hey, this is what we need to eat right now, and this is what we need to be satisfied. We really can rely on that.
Amanda – I love it. It makes me think of when Moses is on the mountain and he hears, or he sees this bush that’s not burning up, it’s like so weird and out of his comfort zone, and he hears the bush inviting him to come closer, and it’s God in the bush. And when he asks what his name is, God answers, I am who I am. Like, he’s so comfortable being himself, and I think that you’re saying of it’s not letting yourself go it’s letting yourself be, puts us, puts me at least in a place of being in touch like, I can be me, and I’m a fat woman, and I use the word fat as a descriptive, neutral, rather than an epithet, and I can walk into a room and not worry about what other people are thinking about my size, because I’ve just come to this place of, I am who I am. I am the person that is in front of you, and that’s enough.
Julie – And you know, one of the most beautiful experiences in my office, is when I’m sitting across from someone who has that moment where you can see it, you can feel it in the room, where there’s a touch of acceptance. And they’re feeling acceptance, I’m getting tingles just thinking about it. And it’s a very, to me it’s always been a religious experience in a sense because I know I’m a religious person and I feel like it’s how God is, in the room. And I can tell in that moment how it’s happening, it’s always wonderful and I never thought about connecting it to Moses like you just said. That is really awesome, thanks.
Amanda – And even to connect it further to Moses, Moses is really insecure. Like, he says, a lot of people say he has a speech impediment or he’s just unfamiliar with the Egyptian language because it’s been 40 years. And I just see God being like, you know what? It’s okay, you can be who you are and do the things I have for you. Like, I’m so empowered by that because in the church a lot I hear, you need to be fit, you need to be healthy so that you can do what God has for you. And I think that, that is a limited view of who God is and who he has inherently made us to be.
Julie – Yeah yeah, I love the, how you said that, for two different reasons. One is, the fit and healthy, like are tools that we think are supposed to do that, don’t actually promote that, they promote the opposite. From most research, suggestions, what we’re finding right now is that really in the end, diets make us more sick. But then the other side of it is, health isn’t a moral issue either, you know? That doesn’t provide favor as whether someone’s healthy or not. Because there are people I feel like, they shouldn’t have to choose to be healthy, there’s so many, there’s such a dynamic type of experience and access to health is not equal, so it’s a very complex kind of situation so I’m like, yeah, health isn’t a moral issue either. So, that’s an interesting point to me.
Amanda – Not even, listeners I did not tell her to say that health was not a moral issue, you’ve heard us say that here before.
Julie – Oh that’s funny!
Amanda – Which is amazing because it’s true, and the truth makes itself known. But, especially as a thoughtful Christian, to look at the kingdom of heaving as being, turning the expectations of the world upside down, where might is right in our world, and whoever has the strength and the ability is celebrated and given wealth and honor. And that in the kingdom of heaven, it turns that on its head in the weak and broken and the sick are to be cared for with a special tenderness and so to recognize that our worth is not in our ability and is not in our weight, it’s not in our health, but it’s in the goodness of our bodies as created by God, so. I love, we did not plan to talk about all that, it just kinda came out, it’s awesome.
So when we talk about intuitive eating, can you tell us how we can eat intuitively? What are the practices we can set up in our lives?
Julie – So intuitive eating has three main areas to it. And when, I’ll describe em, but I feel like it’s important to just acknowledge that it’s pretty non linear. It’s kinda, it’s messy and complicated. And it takes time. I remember Evelyn Tribole, one of the authors of Intuitive Eating, when I first did a training with her in 2006, I believe, she mentioned that when a person comes to her and they’re in a place where they’re not restricting their eating anymore, but their relationship with food still doesn’t feel safe, it still may be chaotic, but yet they’re not, malnourished. It can take, typically about a year, to go through a lot of the processes. And I’ve seen a lot of people experience that and also people take a longer, oftentimes just depending on how they’re experiencing their body, like you, we were talking about earlier about body size. My clients at higher weights, they have to live in a world where their body’s not accepted all the time, and still reject diets. I think that’s harder than for someone who’s at a lower weight. And so I, those are clients that often take longer. So I just want to put that out there. But one of the foundations that I think is important for people to know about is the unconditional permission to eat, and when I sit with clients who are working to make peace with food, that’s the first thing. I think it’s the default always the most important one, the important part of intuitive eating and you know we have to have unconditional permission to eat whatever we need and whatever we want. And that’s the part that gets really messy and is uncomfortable, especially if someone is new to intuitive eating they’re like, wait, so I would just eat cake all day? And in the end it ends up being a much smaller part of the process time wise than a lot of the other stuff, but it still is the most important to me as I, when I work with clients and often times we have to go back to it. Because if we don’t have permission to eat certain foods, certain amounts, or certain times of the day, or for, measuring our weight in the process, which messes that all up, it’s not healing. It’s kind of staying with the paradigm that’s still dieting. But then the other parts of intuitive eating are eating according to hunger, fullness, and satiety cues, so like, using our body as a way to know how much to eat. Like our body’s tools that it was just born with, through our physiology, and relying on those. And then when we’re not relying on those, whether it’s not eating or eating past a fullness or satiety level, often times, I feel like, we don’t all eat intuitively all the time, because we’re not robots, and we all emotionally eat. But if it’s something that’s happening frequently as a way to cope, it’s eventually finding ways to cope outside of food, for more of the times. So those are kinda the core things that people go through, and as I’m saying all this, I can’t remember your original question. But, hopefully I answered it.
Amanda – I think you did! So the question was, how do we intuitively eat? And so, number one is, giving yourself unconditional, full permission to eat. And then number two you said –
Julie – Relying on your hunger and fullness cues and satiety cues.
Amanda – So the good body that God gave you, to trust that it knows what it needs. And then three?
Julie – And then when, that’s not happening, to find another way to cope with tough experiences, tough emotions, basically building a toolbox that’s gonna allow coping without food as the only option.
Amanda – That’s awesome. So I get this question all the time and I wonder if you do, but, people ask me, but what about health, how can I be healthy if I’m not counting calories in and out?
Julie – And that’s the really important part of the intuitive eating research or the non-diet, or mindful eating research, is that they basically were asking that question, because that’s always, that is the first question. I remember talking to a friend of mine’s father just a couple months ago and I hadn’t seen him since I graduated from college which was 20 years ago, and at that point I was a pretty typical dietitian, and working in weight loss and things like that. And so, he said something about like, oh could you give me a diet, and I was like, well actually… this is what I do now. And he was like, what? So I mean, you wanna promote like, cirrhosis and heart disease and like, what? Wait! And so one of the key things to keep in mind about society is that we tend to think in extremes and black and white, especially in the US, it’s just kinda how our brains are used to thinking about concepts and it stinks because the world is so beautifully gray and complicated, and diverse in so many ways, right? And so when we think about not dieting, like we said earlier, well that just means I’m letting myself go, it’s the same kinda thing. Just because we’re not dieting, does not mean we’re not pursuing or promoting health. ‘Cause there is, like, if you had a continuum and had, not like super diet-y and I don’t know, maybe doing that to promote health and then someone who’s just sitting on the couch all day and not doing anything, like, that’s just not the only options, there’s like a gazillion spots in between there. And so it’s just really moving away from dieting that as long as you keep yourself from going to the all or nothing, kind of calling it out when it happens, I think is really awesome. That it’s just not an all or nothing event. And what the research is showing us, like I said, there’s like 85+ studies now on intuitive eating that it does promote health, is that people who score as high in the intuitive eating scale that they have developed, they are people who have lower triglycerides, lower insulin levels, they have lower blood sugar, lower blood pressure, their markers for health are better. And the other part of it is, it’s more sustainable, that’s what research has been able to show too, this is something we can do forever, unlike dieting. And especially if we lived in a community that supported it, which a faith based community would be amazing to have the support to help people in their community to continue to make peace with their food and are just not think that diets are the only way to do it.
Amanda – I think, two things that stuck out to me as you were talking and one is, food peace is a part of health. Because health is not just your indicators, right, not even like your blood sugar and all those things. Health is for your body, your mind, your soul, and it’s an incarnated thing. I think that the line that I like to use when I’m talking about, what about health, is, do what brings you peace. The scriptural analog to that would be, seek peace and pursue it. From the Psalms. That we have the opportunity to find peace that works for all parts of us. We are one whole person. And if I am over emphasizing “health” which is usually slang for thinness or lack of fatness, then that can be very damaging to my mind and my heart. And then therefore I am not actually healthier.
Julie – Wow, yeah, that’s a wonderful scripture, what did you say?
Amanda – Seek peace.
Julie – Seeking peace
Amanda – And pursue it.
Julie – Yeah I love that.
Amanda – And so that means, I have people ask me, well then should I just eat junk food? And I’m like, that escalated quickly.
Julie – That’s that all or nothing, yep!
Amanda – All or nothing. Which, I have a very all or nothing personality and I’ve had to learn to let that be challenged by things that I’m learning.
Julie – Yeah, I think too, we live in a world that’s all or nothing, and some of us will have personalities that are very detail oriented so we can easily kind of, that can be our default, plus culturally we learn it, but the really neat thing that intuitive eating can teach us to do with our brain, is to acknowledge that the first thought is what we’ve learned, and then, or part of our brain wiring, but the second thought can be more in line with what our heart knows to be true, or what we’re trying to promote. So if we’re trying to promote the peace like you said, you can have that as your second thought, it’s kind of like the unlearning, I like to call that.
Amanda – Yeah, absolutely. It’s an unlearning and that’s what we are trying to do through our podcast is unlearning what we’ve been taught about bodies and starting with, for me, part of my faith journey was learning that my body wasn’t bad because I grew up thinking that everything spiritual was good, but my body and all my appetites were bad. And that is actually a heresy addressed by the early church, called gnosticism. And I talk about it in my book, but basically when we see Jesus as the incarnated God, he is reaffirming that the human body is good because he is uniting himself to humanity forever. And so we can’t say, all these spiritual things that I do are great and all the things I do in my body don’t matter, no we’re integrated wholes, we are, just like Jesus is fully God, fully man, we are spiritual beings with good bodies. And so changing that script of my body is bad to my body is good has let me pursue peace in a more holistic way. That, I think, gives a great berth in my life, b-e-r-t-h, for intuitive eating, so I’m excited to learn more about it.
Julie – I would wanna add something too to what you were saying about, when someone is saying, does that mean I’m gonna be eating, I don’t know what you said, like junk food or candy or something like that. And one of the areas I specialize in is working with women who have poly cystic ovarian syndrome, which is a condition that has lots of nutrition recommendations, often diet focused, and they have, I think it’s like 40% of women with PCOS get prediabetes or diabetes by the time they’re 40, so if someone maybe has maybe diabetes, has this PCOS, and they’re seeking food peace, eating the “junk food”, or candy or whatever, may actually be the healthiest thing to do, and this is why. If someone has a relationship with food that’s super chaotic and has no permission, seeking permission, and you have to think long term, you know, in the long term, it’s gonna allow for the variety which variety in food like, choices and access to a variety of food, and I wouldn’t say just in a day process but more of like a week or month. That variety to me is what healthy eating is. I mean, if I had to like, describe it, if I was forced to describe what’s healthy eating, then like, eating a variety of foods and a variety of pleasurable foods and it’s, and you’re nourished enough, that to me is healthy eating. So seeking permission and sometimes having then to work through permission of certain foods that are labeled as not health promoting, is what is the healthiest step. And so I often will kinda chuckle, because I’m like, when they gave me my license to be a dietitian I bet they weren’t thinking of me eating cookies with clients, but that’s what I do with some people!
Amanda – I love it.
Julie – We eat foods that have a scary connotation because we need to find a way to live alongside all the food that we have. And I also want people to be able to go to like a birthday party or some kind of celebration and be able to be a part of it and not avoid it or have food be the focus. Like, relationships are what’s the most important in life, not the food, food does not deserve that power. So seeking that food peace, like if you just examine one slice of it, it may be like, whoa that doesn’t seem right, that’s not healthy. But when you look at the big picture, it makes sense, and that’s, really I’m about long term, lets long term help people find that peace and promote whatever they’re able to do for their health.
Amanda – I love it. That is so helpful. Julie, this has been an amazing conversation. Before we finish, I would love to ask you a question that I learned from listening to your podcast, which is, do you have a resource that you would like to encourage our listeners to access, it can be your own or something that you’re reading, we’d love to know what has helped you and your clients.
Julie – Well one thing that I would recommend is my podcast, you know it’s something that if someone is experiencing some kind of complicated relationship with food, they’d find it helpful, and you can get to it by juliedillonrd.com, and the other one is the blog Body Beloved, which is a blog that’s written by dietitians of faith. And it’s from a Christian perspective, so it’s specifically Christian faith, and they’re really dissecting all of the topics that you also seem to be going through, so if you would like to read things instead of just listening, that may be a resource. When I get questions from people of the Christian faith who are feeling stuck in intuitive eating because of things like gluttony that we were talking about earlier, that’s a resource that I, many people have found helps with that peace process. Because they’re like, oh, so that’s a really good one.
Amanda – Thank you so much! And again listeners, Julie Duffy Dillon, her website is juliedillonrd.com, and the name of her podcast is Love, Food. The comma is actually the sign, not the word. So, and it’s available anywhere podcasts are downloaded. And you’ll really, it’s a treat to listen. I’m, I’ve only recently discovered it and have been listening like every day. I listen to multiple episodes a day and it’s really great.
Julie – Aw, thank you.
Amanda – Where can our listeners follow you on social media?
Julie – So I’m probably most active on Instagram. And it’s at foodpeacedietitian.
Amanda – Perfect. And anything, any words of wisdom you’d like to close us out with today?
Julie – Oh wow, well I believe that everyone can trust their bodies, so you can too.
Amanda – I love it. Thank you so much, this has been so helpful.
Julie – Thank you so much for inviting me, it was so nice to talk about this and I really look forward to listening to it.
Amanda – Thanks for joining us for episode 9 of Fat and Faithful, season 2. We hope that this discussion with Julie Duffy Dillon on food peace and intuitive eating gave you some insight on how to live at peace with food. We have one more episode coming to you before we take a break, and prepare for season three. And as always, we would love to hear your input. You can email us at firstname.lastname@example.org or reach out on social media. Search for us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, with the handle fatandfaithful. May God bless y’all and have a great week as you deepen in love for God incarnate and your neighbor’s body as your own.
Join me this July in Hot Springs, NC for a weekend of art, spirituality, music, and stories at Wild Goose Festival.
I’m thrilled to be returning as a speaker for the third year in a row. I’ll be leading two sessions, one open to all and one in the youth tent.
So often we look at fat bodies as failures – and that is no different inside the church than out. This session will look at some truths about fat bodies – that they are made in the image of God, tell us something unique about God, and are not a sign of sin. While the world tells us that our fat bodies are too much, the truth is that all bodies are expressions of the body of Christ. We will talk about how our churches and communities can be places where fat bodies are welcome and intentionally included as part of a vibrant community. There will be time for questions and discussion.
This weekend is one the highlights of my year for a variety of reasons; the body-diversity and inclusion present at the festival is one of those reasons.
To learn more about booking me as a speaker for your event, visit my Speaking Page.
A friend asked me to share her story with you – and I am delighted to do so. Valerie is a new mom to a darling little boy. She, like most of us, has struggled with her body image but is finding joy in the way her son responds to her body. Here’s her story:
by Valerie Bojarski
One warm morning, after nursing my son, I was sitting on my bed with him in front of me. I was in a nursing sports bra and shorts, he in just his cloth diaper. That morning he officially turned 20 weeks old. I started telling him about what things were like 20 weeks ago, when he was first born. Upon hearing my voice and seeing me interact with him, he smiled and started excitedly kicking his feet. I told him, “Not too long ago, you were kicking me from the inside, now you’re kicking me from the outside!” and tickled him. He squealed with delight and kicked harder. The heel of one of his feet hit my stomach and sank into it pretty far. He pulled his foot away, and repeated the movement, alternating both feet, an expression of great concentration on his face, fascinated by the squishy surface into which he was pressing his feet. A happy moment immediately turned into one of embarrassment, and I felt hot all over as shame washed over me. I looked down at my stomach, lined with stretch marks, and felt disgust. My inner voice told me, “One day he is going to be ashamed of you. He won’t even want to be seen with you in public. You’ll just embarrass him.” I stood up and scooped him up, holding him against me. I looked in the mirror and was struck by the contrast of our sizes.He picked that exact moment to start squeezing and pinching my upper arm. I turned away from the mirror, too ashamed to look any more.
When I first learned that I was pregnant, I immediately asked God to give me a boy. Being fairly new on my journey towards body positivity, I didn’t want to risk causing a daughter to have the same issues that I had. While I know that boys can be insecure in their appearance as well, I felt like having a son was “safer” somehow. I was so relieved when I learned that our little one was male! As I carried him within me, I promised him that I would never cause him to feel as though he was not good enough. I pledged that I would never, not even when he was a baby, speak ill of my body or anyone else’s, and if I heard someone else do it, I would make a point to say to my baby, “We don’t talk about people’s bodies that way, because there is no right or wrong way to have a body.” I had the best of intentions.
That evening, after feeling ashamed of myself in front of my infant son, I told my therapist about the situation, how my squishy tummy was entertaining to my baby. Saying it out loud, I felt ashamed all over again — both of the situation and my response to it. I was enjoying my baby, interacting with him, playing with him, and I ended it because I had an emotional response to an innocuous behavior by my baby. While we processed it, I thought of other ways he has interacted with my body. While nursing, he will press on my breast or stomach, palpating it, almost as if the softness comforts him. He squeezes my upper arms and smiles. He will reach up and squeeze my chin. He nuzzles into my bosom when tired. He turns to me, my body — as it is now — for comfort. He loves me, all of me, as I am. This body, as it is now, carried him for 39 weeks and five days. It nourishes him. It cradles him. It comforts him. It protects him. That sounds like an amazing goal body to me. This body belongs to his mother. And he accepts it, without question.
I can either let other peoples’ perceptions of what a good “goal body” looks like cause me to question my own motherhood, or I can choose to be a good mother right now. Deciding that my body is a reason to hide, to be ashamed, and to judge myself will only take me away from these innocent moments where my son doesn’t know what fat or thin is. My therapist pointed out that If I carry myself in a way that shows that I am embarrassed of myself, or I refuse to go out and engage with the world, he will think that there is a reason to be embarrassed. If I go out and do things with him and not allow my size or fear of judgment affect me, he won’t be embarrassed. I can say that there is no right or wrong way to have a body until I’m blue in the face, but if I act like my body is a wrong body, it will mean nothing.
A few days later, I went to the zoo with a friend. I briefly agonized over whether I should wear a sleeveless shirt. Ultimately, I dressed comfortably, and had a great time at the zoo. I posed in pictures with my son. After looking at the pictures, I immediately noticed stomach rolls and flabby arms. I looked again, and saw a mom with her son, having a great time and making memories. There is no reason to hide. When my son looks back on these pictures, I hope he doesn’t see an embarrassment; I hope that he sees a mom who loves her son and took him to the zoo.
Regardless of whether or not I achieve society’s standards of a goal body, I hope that my son learns that our bodies, as they are, are worthy. Loving them should not wait until or unless a change happens. Our bodies, as they are, are good. As long as we use them to love one another and be there for one another, they have already achieved a goal. Also, squishy tummies are fun for kicking.
It is past time for an update on my faith and fatness work. Here’s what I’ve been up to since I last shared with you:
I am writing a book!
Fortress Press and Theology for the People will be publishing my book on Fatness & Faith in 2018. Most of my writing the past year has gone into this project and I can’t wait to share it with you. My prayer is that it will speak truth and light to those who are afraid their body is too much for God.
Fat & Faithful Podcast
Beginning August 1, you can listen to a podcast featuring myself and Amanda Martinez Beck of Fat, Catholic, and Loved. We’ll be talking faith, politics, and culture as it relates to fatness. You can download the pocdast now and hear our short introduction episode. We’ll release the first few episodes on August 1st and then will have new ones for you a couple times a month after that.
I wrote a few articles on Fatness and Faith
1. Our Bodies are Imperfect Temples at Christianity Today.
God dwells in us whether we’re Olympian-level muscular or morbidly obese.
2. I Saw Myself in This is Us at Christianity Today
I am rooting for Kate. Rooting for her to find hope and redemption and joy. Rooting for the deep insecurities planted in her childhood by a well-meaning mother or insensitive friends to be vanquished by truth and light and love.
3. Fat, Faithful, and Fruitful: Bodies in the Church at Evangelicals for Social Action
I asked a few women that I know who care about body image and the church to answer a few questions about their experiences with how the church has talked, or failed to talk, about bodies. Their answers are instructive about the ways that calling fat “bad,” or excluding fat people from the discussion on bodies, is damaging to the Body of Christ.
I am guest-posting today at a new website dedicated to providing resources for fat Christians. I hope this article is helpful both for pastors and church leaders and for fat Christians who feel unseen.
As a teenager, I professed faith in Jesus at a summer camp in the mountains of Tennessee. I remember badly wanting to ask my youth pastor to baptize me right there, that week, in the pool on the college campus. Not because of any spiritual urgency, but because I was afraid that if I waited to return to church the next week that there would not be a baptismal robe large enough to fit me. My adolescent reserve won out and I waited until we returned to our church to be baptized there. The robe was snug, but did technically fit. A few years later after I was finished with my white high school graduation robe, I donated it to the church and told them to keep it in their baptismal robe supply – just in case.
There are a variety of ways that our churches can be inaccessible to people of size. Often church leadership doesn’t know to look for these areas and church parishioners don’t know they are allowed to speak up. I sat down to talk with my current pastor, Brian Wright, D. Min., about these issues. This article provides some starting points to make your congregation welcoming to people of diverse body sizes.
Wright worked as an eating disorder counselor during his undergraduate days as a psychology major, ministered as a pastor for many years, previously served on the board of the Interfaith Disability Network, and is currently in medical school to become a doctor.
In other words, he is an excellent person to talk with about the intersections of faith and bodies!
Read the rest at Fat Privilege