Listen: http://fatandfaithful.libsyn.com/s2-ep-10-fat-acceptance-myths-busted

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.  

Read all available transcripts at this link.

(intro music)

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Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful, an ongoing conversation about faith, politics, and culture as they relate to fatness.

Amanda – Hi everyone welcome to episode 10 of season two of Fat and Faithful. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I am here with my faithful co-host-

Nicole – J. Nicole Morgan. Hi everyone. So good to be here. Today we are discussing fat acceptance myths: what’s out there, why they aren’t true, and how we can respond when we see them.

Amanda – But before we get to the rest of the episode our resource recommendation of the week is Nicole’s book Fat and faithful.

Nicole – Woo hoo!

Amanda – Yay! Available from Fortress Press. It’s available for preorder on Amazon and-

Nicole – Barnes and Noble.

Amanda – The exciting news is that if you preorder, you get access to Chapter 1 already, and a discussion guide.

Nicole – Yes I have, one of my very good friends wrote the discussion guide and I’m really proud to have that for people. She’s really got at like asking questions and getting you to think and all of that so.

Amanda – That’s so exciting so see Nicole’s Twitter, for more information. It will be the pinned tweet and her Twitter is @JNicoleMorgan. So that is the resource recommendation for the week. And now let’s get to our episode.

Nicole – So Amanda what’s happening with you in faith and fatness this week?

Amanda – I’m so glad you asked so we’re recording this on June 4th. It will release on June 11th, which happens to be my birthday.

Nicole – Yay, happy birthday!

Amanda – Thank you. And yesterday, so June 3rd was the Feast of Corpus Christi in the Catholic Church. What that means is Corpus is body. And Christie is Christ and so it was the Feast of the most Holy Body and Blood of Christ. And I am in the middle of a series on my Instagram called Today’s Good Body Takeaway. And it’s looking at the lectionary from the Catholic Church. And so we have, every three years we read through the Bible in the Catholic Church. We have morning readings, evening readings, mass, all, all different kind of readings. So I’m just taking the daily readings. And looking at them and pulling out lessons about bodies and how we know our bodies are good. So I, and I did not plan that I would be going through the series when we came upon the Corpus Christi feast. Which so, it was really exciting when I was like oh hey, the Holy Spirit has a great sense of timing.

Nicole – I was gonna say serendipitous.

Amanda – Yes spiritdipitous or something like that.

Nicole – Yeah, something like that.

Amanda – And so yeah the Feast of the Body and the Blood is really precious to me because, that’s the reason that I became Catholic. I mean, that’s the reason I became a Christian in the first place. Actually I was three years old. I don’t know if I’ve shared the story on the podcast.

Nicole – No.

Amanda – No? So, I was three years old and my parents went to a bible church in west Texas and they took communion every week which is pretty rare for a Protestant church that’s not liturgical. And I wanted to eat the cracker and drink the juice. Because why wouldn’t you, right, when you’re three. And my parents as it was passed down the aisle my parents shushed me and, and kept me from getting cracker and juice and I was sad. As any three year old would be. So that afternoon, we got home and they shared the gospel with me. They told me about the cross and sin and Jesus saving, coming to save us. So I prayed to receive Jesus. Well the next week at church my parents didn’t think that I really understood ’cause I was three. And so when the juice and the crackers came by again I reached out to take some and they kept me back from taking it. So I said really loud, I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and I want to take communion.

Nicole – Very practical child like here’s all I get what I want. Yes.

Amanda – And so they let me take communion and there was never a pause before that again. But I love, I love that the Lord has revealed to me since then that he used my appetite to draw me to him, that there’s just something so precious about Jesus being food and drink ’cause he meets us in that very vulnerable place. So, I love the Feast of Corpus Christi because it’s a celebration of that. I mean we do it every week in the Catholic church every day but it’s a specific feast for that.

Nicole – Intentional. That’s awesome. Yeah. It reminds me of the “Oh taste and see that the Lord is good” verse.

Amanda – Amen, Psalm Psalm 34 verse 8. One of my life.

Nicole – Look at you!

Amanda – One of my life verses.

Nicole – It’s very evangelical of you to know that’s, chapter and verse reference.

Amanda – It’s very evangelical with me. Three years Catholic, a lifetime of being Protestant, so…

Nicole – You got your Bible drill down.

Amanda – It’s true. What’s, what’s new for you in faith in fatness?

Nicole – So this weekend I got to do something that I had been looking forward to for a very long time. There is, I went on a group hike with a group, an organization loosely held group of people, not really sure, a movement called Unlikely Hikers. And you can find them on Instagram. It’s run by a lady named Jenny Bruso. But she is very intentional about diversity and inclusion in the outdoors. So we had, I believe it was 28 people came to this hike. Which is huge for a group hike. A variety of body types and sizes and ethnic, racial diversity, gender all of that, sexuality. So it was a really cool experience to be in this very inclusive group and everyone was just on board for everyone being outside and being active. And I actually like I kind of struggled with the hike. I have had bronchitis the last week and I probably shouldn’t have gone, but I had been looking forward to it for months and so I went and I like, fell twice which was probably not the result of the bronchitis, just because I’m a little clumsy. And I wasn’t hurt I just, was muddy at the end of it. But I had to like stop and catch my breath. And then just like my stomach was not doing good. And I hike fairly often I never had that happen before. But ultimately one of the women in the group volunteered to walk a little slower with me behind, so the whole group didn’t have to wait, which I was so thankful for. They’re very much about not leaving anyone behind but I was having a special day. So one woman walked with me a little bit slower. And the rest of group went on ahead and I think at the ended up we were only like 10 to 15 minutes behind them at the end. So it wasn’t a huge thing. But anyways it was really good and very affirming to just do it. And even if maybe I should have stayed and rested, given my lungs a little bit more of a chance to recover from bronchitis, I’m so glad I went. And very thankful for that community that Jenny has created and yeah. So I went to check them out on Instagram and on Facebook and Twitter too I think. But Instagram is their big platform and it’s Unlikely Hikers.

Amanda – That’s so exciting. I wish we had a group like that here. Maybe we should start one.

Nicole – Go for it.

Amanda – Although I don’t know where we would hike ’cause we’re in Texas.

Nicole – You just don’t have any shade. I’m a very big fan of the Southeastern hikes where there’s rivers, and lots of shady trees.

Amanda – We’ve we’ve got the trees in East Texas. We’ve got lots of trees but.

Nicole – Oh that’s good.

Amanda – But there’s we have a walking path that extends a couple miles through the middle of town which it’s not hike but it’s walking. So maybe I’ll do something like that. Yeah.

Nicole – I pretty much consider walking in nature hiking, so there you go.

Amanda – We need lots of bug spray. We’ve got lots of bugs out here. So. All right. Well today we are talking about fat acceptance myths or body positivity myths. We are in, Nicole explicitly calls herself as a fat acceptance activist which is a branch of body positivity. I call myself a size dignity activist, because I found that a lot of people in my audience were uncomfortable with the word fat. Which isn’t something we’ll talk about. So. Nicole what’s our first myth to discuss.

Nicole – So here’s one that I hear you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So instead you changed your mind.

Amanda – Hmm. Has someone ever said that to you.

Nicole – Not in those exact words. I don’t know if it’s ever been directed like, specifically at me but I’ve definitely seen the idea. It’s that whole, those who can’t do teach kind of idea where it’s just, if you couldn’t figure out what you actually wanted to do, you just decided that what you were was your goal, is the accusation. That you gave up and are rationalizing. I think is what people are trying to say.

Amanda – Yeah I, I don’t think it’s ever been directed at me but I’ve definitely seen it and it’s made me feel like it’s directed at me. If that makes sense.

Nicole – And I think, for me part of what is most hurtful about this myth, or hearing it. I don’t even know if hurtful is the right word, but there is this grain of truth in there, like I did give up on dieting. I did decide that, that was not a goal of mine and it used to be. So my goal did change and some people will assume my goal changed because I couldn’t reach the original one and that, I that this isn’t kind of like resignation or defeat or trying to make myself feel better about second place. When the truth is I, my original goal was faulty. My original goal is set up to not, for us not to be able to exceed, to succeed. Like most people studies show, can’t lose a significant amount of weight, and keep it off in the long term. You yo yo diet and everything else and so yeah I did change my goal and I did, make something else my goal. But it’s not, I’m having trouble like putting it into words but that nugget of truth is what makes this particular myth kind of hard to talk about with people who don’t get it. But what are your thoughts.

Amanda – So, I want to look like structurally at this myth. So you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So instead you changed your mind. Now the first part of that, you couldn’t do the work to be thin. So we asked the question, why do we need to be thin, right? Why, I’m writing this down, we need to be thin. And then, this is how I dissect things. I write them down. So why do we need to be thin? We don’t. That’s, that’s the first part. And that kind of takes away the power of this of the phrase. Because we don’t have to be thin. But then, addressing the second part, you couldn’t do the work. Couldn’t do the work. yall get to hear my teacher mode today. This is what, when I would teach, I would have my whiteboard and be writing down whatever I said. And dissecting it from there. So couldn’t do the work. So what is the work involved in being thin? That’s not a rhetorical question.

Nicole – Oh, sorry. You’re not writing down your plans. OK. That was an actual question. So the work to be thin, is diet and exercise for the most part. Or, people will say self-control. You don’t have any self-control. That’s really the work of being thin.

Amanda – Yeah. And I think. Ooooh, I just I feel that. Because I ugh, I’ve thought it so much. I just don’t have self-control like, when the scripture says, and is it first Timothy, that the Lord has given us not a spirit of fear but a spirit, a sound mind–.

Nicole – Sound mind.

Amanda – And self control.

Nicole – The fruit of the spirit.

Amanda – Right. So am I not spiritual? Do I not have the Holy Spirit living in me. And that’s that’s the painful accusation that comes when people say that weight issues are just a matter of self-control.

Nicole – Right. And so then if you can’t do the work of self-control and so you instead, you change your mind, we’re going to stick on this whole scripture thing. So now you are what is it, a piece of driftwood tossed easily to and fro. That’s the verse that would always get me. So now you have, you have no convictions. You have no understanding of who you are, who God is, or what he wants from you. So all of this myth, is basically telling us we lack all ability to know ourself and to do hard work. Which is just not true.

Amanda – And to let God change us.

Nicole – Yeah.

Amanda – Because you know the first article I read by you. How, the way that we were introduced was, you wrote the piece for Christianity Today, “God loves my fat body as it is.” And in there you said that, you asked God so many times to help you lose weight, right?

Nicole – Yeah.

Amanda – Because that would prove that you were walking with him and that you could do all things through Christ.

Nicole – Right. So weight loss became a sign of my self control and my dependence on God and that I was a good Christian.

Amanda – So is weight loss an indicator of self-control, or weight loss, or thinness. And the answer is…

Nicole – No.

Amanda – No. Weight loss and thinness are not a function of spirit given self-control. Weight is factored, has so many different factors, and it’s way more complicated than calories in, calories out. Calories in, being diet. Calories out, being exercise. It is way more complex than that. And so part of part of fat acceptance or body positivity or size dignity, is accepting that, is coming to our bodies humbly and saying, we don’t get it. We don’t know why all these things are happening. We can’t say for certain that x causes y, that causes z, because people in all size bodies get diabetes. People in all size bodies have heart attacks. We can’t just say we get how the body works completely. So I think it’s really coming to it with an attitude of humility. To recognize that, weight is not an indicator of discipline, self-discipline.

Nicole – Yeah. So I think, then their response to this myth, is yes my goals changed. But they didn’t change because I gave up. They changed because I understood reality better, or I understood my body better.

Amanda – Yeah. That, my goals changed. I couldn’t do the work to be thin, no. I decided I didn’t want to do the work to be thin. ‘Cause it wasn’t my body piece.

Nicole – Right.

Amanda – And I did change my mind. it definitely involves changing your mind.

Nicole – It does.

Amanda – Definitely.

Nicole – It is a dedicated persistent work of changing your mind on this topic. I tell people frequently, it is a journey. It is a path. Someone asked me, I don’t remember where, like, how long it took me. And it was at least 10 years before body positivity and accepting myself, was my default most of the time. And even now, it’s not always my fault. But I remember, it was 10 years after I really started trying, where I realized one day, oh this is almost second nature to me now. Now I typically assume my body is good rather than assuming it is bad.

Amanda – I love that. I mean that’s, I love that you’re there. And I think we’re so focused on a quick fix. For everything in our life, right? And knowing that, that is an act of self-control. You have been walking in self-control about thoughts towards your body for 10 years. And you’re seeing the fruit of that. So if anyone ever tells you that you don’t have self-control, when we look at the fruit. And my loving God, and my neighbor as myself better than I was 10 years ago. Yes, then I am walking in some measure of self-discipline. That is the purpose of self-control. Is to be able to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself more.

Nicole – Amen, like that is the test. I wish I knew who said it but I just scrolled through a tweet the other day and it said, the test for if you love God in the Bible, is if you love your neighbor. The test for if you love your neighbor, is if you love your enemy.

Amanda – Wow.

Nicole – And so yes exactly what you just said. If what you’re doing with your body means you love your neighbor more, than you’re getting something right.

Amanda – Right. Well speaking of enemies, fat acceptance myth number two.

Nicole – Yes, so fat acceptance shames thin people.

Amanda – So, allow me to be a little bit nerdy. The ideas behind deconstruction, in a literary sense, like in literary theory or, I don’t, it’s much bigger than just literary theory. But, was it Foucault who is the deconstruction person?

Nicole – Oh I don’t know. Derrida.

Amanda – Derrida, thank you. Is it Derrida?Jacques Derrida.

Nicole – Yeah I mean it’s been a while since literary criticism.

Amanda – Foucault, I think Foucault is structuralism.

Nicole – Yeah, that sounds right.

Amanda – I need my English teacher husband here, because he’s really helped me see this in terms of deconstructing. So when, and please jump in at any point. But deconstruction is, is looking at something, a topic like thin versus fat. And you have thin as, is the good and fat is the bad. So the first is good. The second is bad. And in order to look at that in a better way, you flip those two. So fat versus thin, where fat becomes the good and then becomes the bad. The point is not to say that thin is actually bad, it’s just to point out the differences between those. And I think people get uncomfortable when we start saying fat is good because they automatically assume that, that means thin is bad.

Nicole – Yeah. So you do this mental trick, or this mind exercise. Where you find the goodness of fat and sometimes because of just the way our culture has talked about bodies, like you, like you’re saying you have to put them on the bad side in order to get your mind there. But that’s not the goal. All bodies are good bodies right?

Amanda – Right. Exactly.

Nicole – And then I think on the same time, that there’s definitely, some people, no matter if what you’re doing, if you are elevating bodies of one type, they will think you’re criticizing bodies of another type. We see this when we talk about other issues of justice and inequality. If someone says Black Lives Matter, someone else is gonna think you don’t like white people. Which is not at all what it means.

Amanda – Right.

Nicole – And so this is the same a very similar situation. We’re saying you we need to treat fat bodies with love and dignity and respect and give them equal access to the world.

Amanda – Part of that is when a certain body type has had the cultural favor, forever, when you start to push for equality, it’s going to feel limiting towards those who have been in a position of power. So in the fat versus thin world, thin people have been privileged to be celebrated, to be idolized, to be held up as paragons. And part of claiming the goodness of fat bodies is saying not only that fat bodies are good, but we’re worshipping thin bodies so you gotta bring it down. And that feels uncomfortable for, for the thin paradigm. Does that make sense?

Nicole – Yes. And that means that some people might have to give up something. Just this is a common example for me. But group T-shirts, you talked about it in a couple episodes ago, with your ability to have a shirt for your work function. But I’m at the point where I’m saying, if you can’t find a distributor that has sizes up to at least a 6X, like don’t order T-shirts. Then people don’t get em. No one gets T-shirts unless everyone gets T-shirts. And whether that’s a band or a musician, like huge large popular entertainment on tour who brings all their band shirts with them to sell. Or a Christian conference, or your church’s, you know, hospitality team. Like whatever it is like, if everyone can’t participate, then no one gets to. And there might be thin people who would be like, “why don’t we wear T-shirts anymore.” And you, you lose your ability to have the T-shirt that you always had, if you’re going to really be on board. We’re going to make sure everything is equitable as much as we can before we participate with it. So.

Amanda – And the thing about this is, it’s gonna be uncomfortable for both sides to be talking about these things. Fat people have been told for so long that they don’t deserve to take up as much space as they need, and that they are a blight to society and I mean the list can go on and on and on. But we have to say, because the negativity towards fat people has been so great, it’s going to feel really awkward for both sides to say, “hey this makes me feel dehumanized.”.

Nicole – Right.

Amanda – And just for people to recognize that, if I’m a fat person talking about fat bodies being good, I’m not saying you’re thin body isn’t good but I’m saying that, the way that our culture has supported you, has dehumanized me. So it’s not to shame thin people, but it is to point out idolatry and injustice. And that makes people uncomfortable.

Nicole – Yeah. And I will say like I have, I have heard people who are, who are fat, who have said negative things about thin bodies, who will criticize them and make jokes and say things like, “Eat a hamburger” or they’ll make cool comments and those comments are wrong.

Amanda – Yes.

Nicole – And they do not honor the dignity of the person that they are speaking about.

Amanda – Absolutely. .

Nicole – Don’t excuse those comments. But as you were talking earlier with that, where you flip the script. It is a coping mechanism that people in fat bodies use because of how often fat bodies are devalued. And so you flip the script in your head, it’s a coping mechanism and it’s not right. And I call it out when people around me are doing it. But there is a power differential in a fat person making a joke about a thin body, than our entire culture that marginalizes fat bodies.

Amanda – Yes.

Nicole – And so that’s an important thing to remember as a thin person. Definitely call out your friends if they say something hurtful, let them know. But also, at the same time understand where the privilege and the power is in this relationship.

Amanda – I love that, that was really well said, thank you. So, the last myth that we will address today is fat is a bad word or it’s rude to call yourself fat. What are your thoughts on that. Nicole.

Nicole – I am fat. I don’t think that’s rude. So, but at the same time, if I’m talking about people that I don’t know where they’re at with their body acceptance journey, I will use the term plus size until I know how they call themselves, what word they used for themselves. It’s becoming more common to use fat as a neutral word which is amazing. Because that has been the goal for a very long time in the fat acceptance community. But we’re not there yet. And it definitely matters in the tone and how it’s said. You can tell when someone is insulting you or just using a neutral word. So I would say lead with what the person uses about themselves, is kind of how I play with that. Yeah. I think that is the wrong phrasing but yeah.

Amanda – That’s how you gauge when to use it?

Nicole – Yes. There we go, that’s a better word. Yeah, how about you?

Amanda – I, I’m still not a huge fan of the word fat, if someone else uses it towards me. Unless I know them well, because it, words have power right? Words can be wielded as weapons of destruction or as instruments of peace. And when we decided to name our podcast Fat and Faithful, for me it was a very intentional claiming of the goodness of my body and the descriptor is fat. So I definitely believe that it is a good word. I have a lot of baggage that comes with the word. And part of calling ourselves fat, for me, is to remove that stigma, not just for myself, but for other people that the world deems fat. For example, when my children say someone is fat, I have to affirm the humanity of the person that they’re referring to. And so instead of saying, “don’t say that because it’s shameful no one wants to be fat” in how I respond I say, oh tell me why you think that. And what do we say about bodies? All bodies are good bodies. And so it’s redefining the script around the word fat. That is my mission even though using it, when someone uses it towards me, it still makes me uncomfortable. That’s precisely why I want to keep using it. Because it is not the worst thing in the world to be fat. It is not shameful. And so when I encounter the word and stand as a witness against the shame, that is, I believe that’s powerful. And it’s something small and yet incredibly important that I can do, so it’s not a bad word.

Nicole – It is not, and I love how you, you talk about with your kids like you interrogate their labelling almost. Like why are you saying that? What are you saying? What does that mean about them? So that’s really good. And it’s part of teaching them what our new slogan is, that we love God incarnate in our neighbor’s body as our own.

Amanda – I love our new slogan. All right. Well here this was a really good discussion today with our fat acceptance mythbuster episode. I want to remind our listeners about Nicole’s book, Fat and Faithful. It’s available for preorder on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and is it available from the website site Fortress Press?

Nicole – There’s a link there with ways you can order. So they have different ways you could order from there.

Amanda – And remember if you preorder you get access to Chapter One and a discussion guide. And so make sure you do that and check Nicole’s pinned tweet to get details on accessing Chapter 1 and the discussion guide. We’d love to hear what fat acceptance myths you have encountered, and how you responded to them. Also this is our final episode for season two. We’re gonna be taking some time this summer to plan out season three. So make sure you share your ideas on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter about things you’d like to hear from us in season 3.

Nicole – Thank you so much for joining us today. We’d love for you to continue to engage with us online. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at fat and faithful and join the discussion group on Facebook, All Bodies Are Good Bodies. Please take a minute to rate and review the podcast on iTunes and share this episode on social media using the hashtags #allbodiesaregoodbodies or #fatandfaithful. This helps us reach more people with our mission to love God incarnate in our neighbors body as our own.

Amanda – We hope y’all have a great week and we’ll see you in season 3.

Nicole – See y’all later!

Listen: http://fatandfaithful.libsyn.com/s2-ep-7-on-being-the-fat-kid

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.  

(intro music)

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Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful, an ongoing conversation about faith, politics, and culture as they relate to fatness.

Amanda – Hello and welcome to this episode of Fat and Faithful. We’re glad to be here with you today. Today we’re talking about being the fat kid: experience. . . The experiences of fat children. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I am with my cohost.

Nicole – Nicole Morgan.

Amanda – We grew up as fat kids.

Nicole – We did.

Amanda – So we wanted to talk about that a little bit.

Nicole – So a few weeks ago I had a picture in my Facebook memories that showed up and it was like a picture of me when I was 13 I think on the beach. . . and I was like, yeah, a picture of my childhood and I remember being 13 and trying to remember, or trying to figure out if I was allowed to like that picture of myself. I was like carrying a little boogie board and the sun was setting. It was very beachy. It looked kind of cool but, I was like well I’m in a bathing suit and I’m fat so maybe I’m not supposed to like this. And that was kind of … I was like, we should talk about this and just all of the things that go on as a fat kid.

Amanda – Absolutely. Well what what is new in fatness and faith?

Nicole – Oh goodness. I usually have an answer ready for this. And I don’t today. I got a haircut yesterday. Maybe that doesn’t sound like fatness, but it’s short hair and all the rules say you’re not supposed to have short hair when you have a fat face. But, I love it.

Amanda – Oh no, It’s an amazing haircut. It’s an amazing haircut.

Nicole – I should retweet it into the Fat and Faithful timeline.

Amanda – Oh please do.

Nicole – So everyone else can see my hair.

Amanda – Well it’s connected to what I wanted to bring up about in faith and fatness not related really to faith or fatness but I guess it’s been a week or maybe two weeks. There was a “post your original headshot” from celebrities.

Nicole – I saw all that.

Amanda – And they . ..so we see pictures, like Reese Witherspoon as a 13 year old who looks pretty much exactly the same in her face as, I don’t know, a 40 something year old but I thought it would be fun if we found pictures of ourselves that we liked as children. Or you know to go back and look and be like see, I’m obviously didn’t have a headshot done here or maybe had a Glamour Shot done or whatever but just to post them, to post them on the Fat and Faithful page so we can just delight in your child’s self.

Nicole – Fat and faithful childhood.

Amanda – Yeah.

Nicole – Have our own hashtag.

Amanda – And you don’t have to be fat to post your picture, because everyone’s body is good. But I found some awesome pictures. It’s definitely I was, I was always the biggest kid in my class, but when I look back at my pictures I’m like, I was also the most awkwardly dressed.

Nicole – We should talk about the lack of plus sized children’s clothes..

Amanda – Yes especially in the 80s 90s. Oh man.

Nicole – I can tell you a little about that as we get into. What I remember wearing. There was lots of stretch cotton.

Amanda – Oh yes. And my shorts that I was not allowed to wear to school but that I still wore. I was buckin’ the system early. They’re like, my teacher, I remember my fifth grade teacher being like, Amanda, you can’t wear bike shorts to school. And I was just like nothing else fits!

Nicole – Like, this is all I’ve got.

Amanda – Yeah and even to wear it, which was very counter to my personality type. I was very much a people pleaser. But if you don’t have clothes, that’s a big deal.

Nicole – It is a big deal, it’s a thing, it’s a problem. I think it’s better now for kids these days. But it’s a thing.

Amanda – Yeah the internet has made things so much more accessible.

Nicole – So we asked many of you about your fat childhoods and if you wanted to share anything with us or tell us about what that was like if you were a fat kid too and we heard quite a few of you. So I wanted to read some of those stories. So I guess we can just go back and forth and read these. So I’ll start. So this is from Erin. And we did ask permission to use everyone’s names so we’re good here. So Erin says “I was a fat kid with a thin mom and sister. I think the thing that messed me up the most was the mixed messages I got from my parents. My mom in particular. I never doubted I was loved. I was told I was beautiful. They never berated me or called me out for being fat. Never praised my sister for being thin. But they took me to the doctor to see if there was anything physically wrong with me, ’cause why am I so fat and my sisters are not. They asked me if I had been abused, because I guess that would have explained something. But I hadn’t been. It would stop me from taking second helpings at dinner. My mom, who is naturally thin, always complained about her weight, obsessed about what she ate, or demean herself when she gained weight and she never weighed more than 112 pounds when I was growing up. The thought I internalized was, if she thinks that about herself, what must she think about me.”.

Amanda – There’s so much there.

Nicole – One thing with what Erin shared was that, they called her beautiful. They didn’t make fun of her. And that’s so often, I hear people’s that vice for body image is for like parents to tell their kids that they’re beautiful or tell their girls that they are beautiful. And I, I understand that. But like, pretty is not the point. Parents or others can tell people they’re beautiful. But when you get treated like you’re different, it still matters. It’s still noticed. Kids still notice that, and there are definitions of beauty in our culture that change with culture and change over time and you can play into those or not play into those on any given day. But for me I just I don’t really, I like to feel pretty personally but that’s not the point for me. And so I tend to not advise people to use like, the princess beautiful pretty language because that makes it so that that’s the goal, is to be attractive in some way. When in reality the goal is to be accepted for who you are and valued for who you are and not made to feel ashamed or othered or that you don’t fit into your family or that you’re somehow different in a bad way. Because of your body.

Amanda – I have three little girls and a son who’s awesome. They’re all awesome. But figuring out how to speak to them in a way that affirms their bodies is something I think about daily. And I’m probably counter what you said just slightly. I think it’s important to teach children what beauty is and then affirm that beauty in them. So I think you’re probably using beauty as a shorthand for attractiveness.

Nicole – Yeah.

Amanda – And I I remember growing up and never really hearing that I was beautiful and that there was a place in me that wanted to be beautiful. I think that that actually I would say that’s a human drive to be beautiful. And I think we, each person is. But we define it in our culture as attractiveness, which has to do with what other people, how other people value our appearance as opposed to the inherent goodness. Now I’m not saying you said that any of that like you didn’t.

Nicole – Yeah, you’re just clarifying the words. I definitely mean like attractive and I’m like not everyone is attractive.

Amanda – Right.

Nicole – That’s just the truth.

Amanda – It’s true.

Nicole – That doesn’t mean not everyone is valuable.

Amanda – Yes. My two older daughters they’re 6 and 2 and my oldest, she’s a fashionista. So she’ll put on clothes and she’ll comment she’ll be like Mommy am I beautiful?And so in those circumstances, trying to unpack that of, Oh my goodness you are beautiful and I think you have good taste in clothes and you are delightful. I try to round it out so that she knows that it’s not merely what she looks like on her face or her body, like she’s engaging as a person. But my 2 year old has started doing it just in the past month or so. She’ll say “do I look pretty and my beautiful?” And so trying to, I’ve been just trying to work through that of, oh my goodness she’s so beautiful. And I want to affirm all these other things that are valuable. So sometimes like I remember there was a Verizon commercial. I don’t know why it was a Verizon commercial. But is about a little girl not being able to play in the creek in a dress, and like turning her away from science, and because she was being complimented for being pretty and beautiful, and we needed to compliment brains instead. And I just remember watching them being like, I think we have a desire to be aesthetically pleasing. You know what I mean?

Nicole – Yeah I think it’s a yes and a both and. Yeah I mean I, I tell my nieces they’re pretty, and I like being pretty when people tell me I’m pretty, everyone told me my haircut was pretty. It was fun. But like yes, what you’re saying is go beyond that. So you have good taste in clothes or, that was very creative of you or I let your adventurous spirit or you know adding to it that it’s not all about what you look like at the moment.

Amanda – WelI, I don’t want to encourage an gnostic view of bodies, saying that our brain or you know soul is more important than our flesh. What we want to to celebrate the whole thing together as an incarnational people. So I’m sure, I’m sure that we’ll get a lot more interesting points so we go on. We’re kind of going off the cuff with how we’re discussing these things. So I love it. I’m, I’m an off the cuff kind of person, Nichol’s a very planned person. Let’s go into the next story here. This is from Jordan. “I was always above the average weight but it started becoming noticeable more as I entered elementary school. I liked foods especially, quote, bad foods and hated vegetables, still do because of food textures. I remember going through my school scrapbook, my grandmother kept of me and her getting frustrated as my weight kept crawling up, up, up, every year. I heard constant versions of if only you lost weight. You have such a pretty face or if only you looked like her or her, or you can wear such cute clothes or do this or that if you were skinny. The list could go on. The worst was when they’d compare me to my cousin, five years my junior, who has special needs, one of which includes eating and stomach problems so she’s super skinny. I remember being told once, I’d never be able to do a certain job. I think it was singing, I had wild aspirations as a child because I was fat. It stung. I was also an emotional eater who was extremely sensitive to these types of comments. So instead of pushing me to lose, they were pushing me to eat more. As a child, we tried different diets and such, but nothing stuck. I was put in dance classes in an effort to lose weight. I was forced to play outside to play, bike ride, despite having asthma and severe allergies.” What do we see in Jordan’s story.

Nicole – The thing that sticks out to me is that I resonate with, is the limitations on what your future could be. She couldn’t be a singer. And I just remember, like I so clearly remember like especially like middle school, high school, even thinking about like the whole what do you want to be when you grow up thing. And like cycling through ideas. And there was a time that I really wanted to be like a pediatrician or something, I don’t even know. It doesn’t sound like me at all anymore. But I just I remember at the time thinking well that’s going to be weird if you’re a fat doctor. Like, you can’t do that one. And ultimately my first job after college, was a high school teacher. So I went to college to be a teacher. And I was just, I like walking back into a high school as a fat person was, I didn’t know if I’d be able to do that. So like my, for like one of my like really big diets that I lost a lot of weight on was early in college because I was like I can’t be a teacher if I’m fat ’cause they’ll never listen to me. And as a fat high school teacher there were some times when that became an issue. But that, by that point. So in college I discovered fat acceptance and learning to love my body. So by that point I had more of a sense of who I was and what was appropriate what wasn’t. But yeah that was a huge thing. What can I do in this body. And there was lots of limitations that other people would say or I would place it for myself.

Amanda – I think the thing that sticks out to me in Jordan’s story is the comparison with her cousin. In this case there was actually a medical issue that that prevented her cousin from being anything but who she was. I mean being super skinny, and that’s not a problem. The problem is when we compare people. I mean, we do it to ourselves right, we we say what do they have that I don’t have. But we also, oh my goodness. I try. I try so hard, I hope I have never compared bodies for my children. I compare behavior though. So I know that I do compare, I’m like look you’re sister’s doing this why can’t you obey like her. Making it clear that you are accepted the way that you are. One of my childhood difficulties was that I never felt like I fit in my family. I felt, felt on the outside. And some of that is just my personality. But some of that was because siblings automatically, or cousins you know whoever ever close family members, automatically are looking for, hey this is unfair. My kids constantly are like, you did this for so and so and not for me. So when I would analyze the treatment of, between my sister and me, my younger sister, I would say okay so why is she getting treated differently. Why, you know what my parents would praise her for the way that she ate, ’cause she just ate so slowly. I’m just, there’s nothing slow about me. I just like to be going. And so I felt ashamed by the way that I just like to eat fast. I like to read fast. I like to do everything fast. And there are definitely character development things that I’m learning to take things more slowly. But so when we’re automatically looking for, to our siblings. Like why do they get treated differently than I do and I’m not, we’re not blind like fat kids are not blind, they can see that oh my body is bigger than so and so’s. Is she getting treated better than me because of X Y Z. So to have that reinforced verbally to be like, why can’t you be like so-and-so who doesn’t eat very much. Or further isolates and others, makes you other-ed.

Nicole – Inside your own family.

Amanda – Oh one note on that is, being forced to play outside despite having asthma and severe allergies to pollen. That is a big deal.

Nicole – And fleetly ignore your actual health issues and for this aesthetic purpose of being thin. Yeah I mean that speaks even, that doesn’t stop. As you get older, medical issues get ignored. Everything can be solved by losing weight apparently. So.

Amanda – OK. Next story.

Nicole – This is someone left a comment on the Fat and Faithful Instagram, from Fayelle. She says, “all my childhood, I was told to hold on my stomach until I had kids that actually made a difference and how I looked. But I realized just a few months ago that it was actually physically impossible for me to casually walk around without involuntarily holding in my muscles. I have to intentionally relax them and even then as I move around other things my mind, I find that my abs have tensed back up again.” The thing that stuck me with this one is, there’s a lot of people who would read that and say, wow, success. And I think she even went on in her comment a little later say she’s kind of proud that she could retrain all of her muscles but also, oh my goodness look what I did to my body. Yeah like their muscles aren’t supposed to be tense 24/7 and especially not for, look a little bit slimmer, a couple inches slimmer.

Amanda – I mean so think about this. If you’re, if muscles in a different place of your body are tense all the time, we send you to a chiropractor or a massage therapist.

Nicole – Right, let’s work out those knots.

Amanda – Right. So we need to learn to carry our bodies with peace. Right. And that means I mean if you want to talk hold your stomach in great. Do it. Just know that you don’t have to. So this is, last night I watched Ted Talk by Amy Cuddy and she’s a social psychologist and she was talking about posturing and how our body language affects our psyche. A lot of alpha personalities are very open with their bodies their hands, their hands go up. They spread their legs, they sit. They take a commanding posture, called the power pose. And the weak poses, people who like hold their necks when they talk or cross their arms or just try to make themselves smaller, and that’s the language that she used, have different response psychically not psychically, psychologically. So the things that we do with our bodies affect our mental state and vice versa. She said, let me pull up the quote that I wrote down from what she said last night. She said “our bodies change our minds and our minds change our behavior, and our behavior changes our outcome.” So if we have in our mind that we need to be small. And I think that is a pretty common for women, that we are required to be small, that actually affects our psyches. That means that we’re going to try to impose less power in a room, we’re going to try to make sure that we are fitting in a specific space and that’s very limiting and it affects our our interactions with the world and not just in a, I’m going to be a small feminine thing way, but we don’t take up the space that our personalities need. And so it just made me think of, I knew we were recording this episode today. So I was thinking about how, as I have developed in accepting my body I have started just being way more open. I was always very confident. But but just being like this is my body, I’m not going to apologize for it. I’m not going to tense up my muscles to suck in my gut. I’d rather spin those, that energy that I have doing something else. And so when we’re children, just being aware that our kids need to be able to be fully themselves, no matter what that looks like.

Nicole – Yeah I don’t have specific memories but just the general, I was always like crossing my arms, or like pulling my arms in close to myself. Just really trying to take up as little space as possible or try to fit into the space. I remember in middle school I guess, middle school and high school, when the desks changed and the chairs were attached to the desks. Like, getting into the classroom earlier because there was a few desks that people had managed to bend the chairs back on. So there’s a little more space in between the chair and the desk in front of you. And just trying to get there so that I can get into that seat. And never actually have to say that’s what I was doing. And make it obvious, but just to be able to find the spaces where I could fit without having to hold myself uncomfortably. And always be on the lookout for that.

Amanda – For some of our listeners who have not had to endure being physically constrained into a tight space without choosing that, I don’t know people get into roller coaster apparatuses that squeeze you into tight spaces. When you sit in a seat like in school, and it, you don’t fit in it, the whole time you’re not able to fully engage in your lesson, right. Because it’s either, you’re in pain or you’re uncomfortable or you’re self-conscious like so many, so many aspects of that are limiting. And that also comes to clothing too.

Nicole – Yeah it just becomes like this dull kind of thing that’s always with you. Like I got pretty good at tuning it out but it’s just kind of always there. Like to use the biblical example, the thorn and the flesh, you know it’s just there. You learn to live your life around it and to accommodate for it and to make adjustments to make it as bearable as possible.

Amanda – Yeah. The next story comes from my friend who preferred to stay anonymous. And we talked on the phone so I’m gonna be summarizing her story and pointing out some things that I, that I thought were worthy of talking about. So this is my friend and we’ve been friends for a long time. But she talked about just the ostracism of being the fat kid. And that her friends’ parents even would do things that let her know that they know. They knew she was fat and that it was something to be changed about her. She shared a story with me, that she went over to a friend’s house and they went to a restaurant where they serve just health food, when she was staying the night with her friends and then, and then when they got home the parents were like let’s do some activity. And my friend said she remembered it being fun and enjoying like going out to eat and then doing activities. Then she wondered later, was that because I was there. Did they change… like why were they saying, what were they saying by taking me to this restaurant and getting me to, you know climb, to do stairs together as a kid. She also told me about a trip she went on to Europe and being the fat person on the trip and she was in junior high, that people, I mean Europeans stared at her. She says she didn’t feel rejection from the people on her, in her group but that she was ogled, ogled as a fat person. So she would get comments from adults. She remembers that she wanted to be a majorette, to be a twirler in the band and the band director had a conversation with her mom that was basically we don’t do fat majorettes here. Like she was on Fen-Phen in sixth grade.

Nicole – For those who don’t know Fen-Phen was a diet drug that got pulled off the market because it caused heart attacks.

Amanda – She remembers being on a retreat with her with like a church program and one of the leaders, who was a mom, and one of the other girls came to her to talk about her weight. You know and to the point where she just didn’t, there was no place to feel safe. I’m sharing all of these specific instances because sometimes people think that fat people are being overly sensitive, but these things, this is just a sampling of things that happened to this one friend that I have. The school cafeteria where she was, there was a section for the teachers and the section for the students and it was like you could go back and get a seconds and, whatever it was a small school. And she said she would always get seconds or thirds. And she knew that other people were looking at her like she didn’t need to eat more. But her friends accepted her and so she was like, whatever I want to eat more so I’m gonna eat more. One time she was walking back up to get more food and her favorite teacher shouted across the cafeteria, No. Like said her name and said no about her going back to get more food.

Nicole – Wow.

Amanda – And just the I mean any kid in junior high or high school, for a teacher to intervene like that, no matter your size, I think would be embarrassing. And so for it to come just at a tender place of course couldn’t that have been more discreet. If you feel the need to, to police what other people are doing with their own bodies, couldn’t have been more discreet as opposed to publicly shaming.

Nicole – Yeah, the thing her story made me think of specifically the trip to Europe, when she was in sixth grade, and going on field trips and class trips. I remember when I was a freshman, one of my classes at high school took a long weekend trip, a field trip. And I don’t even remember really why we were going. But they went and like lived on a ship in New England for the weekend and was like the ship’s crew. It’s like an old like sailing vessel kind of thing. And I didn’t go because my family couldn’t afford that kind of trip. But I remember like I was sad I couldn’t go. I wanted to go. But I remember knowing that it was probably better anyways because something in me just knew, that like ships were cramped. And had tight quarters and like narrow passageways and things like that. Or you’d have to climb up into the, to do all the sail lines and climb up into the wren’s nest or whatever and they did all those kinds of things. And so I stayed. I didn’t go. And when they came back and they were showing pictures and stuff and I was just looking at like, how small the openings were to get down like below deck. And all the things they had to do. It’s like I knew that if I had gone, and who knows what actually would have been the case. But it in my mind as a 15 year old I was like I wouldn’t have fit that there anyway, even if we could have afforded that trip. So just the sense of being outside of your classmates and you can’t really participate and no one else is thinking about that. No one else is trying to figure out if it’s accessible to you or even asking those questions.

Amanda – Hey listeners we’re going to continue this conversation in the next episode. So make sure you check out Part 2 on Being the Fat Kid.

Listen: http://fatandfaithful.libsyn.com/s3-ep1-welcome-to-season-3-of-fat-faithful

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.  

Read all available transcripts at this link.

(intro music)

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Nicole – Welcome to Fat and Faithful an ongoing conversation about faith politics and culture as they relate to fatness.

Amanda – Welcome to season 3 episode 1 of Fat and Faithful. I am Amanda Martinez Beck and I’m here with my co-host . . .

Nicole – This is J. Nicole Morgan. Hi everybody.

Amanda – And we’re so glad to be back. Nicole, It has been a bit. It has been a minute.

Nicole – It’s been a while. I don’t know… May to, it’s now October so however many months that is like, 7?

Amanda – June, July, August, September. No, just five.

Nicole – Just five. Well OK it felt longer. Super excited.

Amanda – Yeah, this is the longest we’ve gone without recording since we started last summer.

Nicole – We just both had really busy summers which is what we’re gonna talk about today and everything that’s been going on.

Amanda – Yeah, so what’s been up with you? A little bit of big news.

Nicole – Yes, so my book is officially out in the world as of August 1st. So that’s out there. It’s doing great. I had like a launch party which was super fun. And had like a big huge cake version of my book that a friend made me.

Amanda – So nice.

Nicole – That was also delicious. So that was fabulous. It was great to just celebrate it that way. Been getting some good feedback. So I’ve been really excited to launch that and it’s to be officially out there in the world. And what about you? How’d your summer go?

Amanda – Well it was really busy, I got a new job started working full time. And along with editing my book and it’s almost done.

Nicole – Yay!

Amanda – Thank you, I have a few more or, I just need to read it one more time. They sent me the galley proofs yesterday. So just gonna to proofread and then it’ll be printed at the end of October on like physical copies. I’ll get those. But the book releases December 6th. Which, I am very excited about, you talked about your launch party, so I’ve started planning mine.

Nicole – I saw some of your little like launch party decorations. It’s super fun to plan.

Amanda – I’m so excited. It is a strange feeling to be planning something that’s this big a deal. Like.

Nicole – Yeah.

Amanda – Oh it feels that perhaps this is not an appropriate comparison, but it feels like I’m planning a wedding reception.

Nicole – I had similar thoughts and I’ve never been able to do that. So I was very much enjoying having a party. And It’s also, I think you know writing and podcasting are such. . .. I don’t know the right word for it but our audiences are often people that we don’t see in person on a regular basis. And so launch parties are very geographically situated. So being able to celebrate and to share with people that you know but might not be as connected to our work – that was really cool for me. For people who know me and love me and you know just outside of the specific work – and to be able to celebrate that with them was really a neat thing.

Amanda – That’s awesome.

Nicole – And I wish I had teleportation and I can bring everyone who’s listening right now to my party on your party.

Amanda – Agreed. I know I’ve been like “oh I wish Nicole could be at my party.” I really wanted to be at yours. But we live a couple thousand miles apart so…

Nicole – We do and time is a thing.

Amanda – One day we will. You know, listeners, we’ve never met in person.

Nicole – We haven’t.

Amanda – We formed this friendship online so we are very thankful for the interwebs.

Nicole – Yes.

Amanda – One thing was. One thing I’m really excited about is that my launch party is on the book release day December 6.

Nicole – Oh fun. What Day of the week is that?

Amanda – It’s a Thursday. It’s not practical, but um.

Nicole – Hey, do you.

Amanda – Well it’s in the middle of Advent and so it’s the Feast of St. Nicholas which is super fun because one, it’s a feast in the middle of a fasting season.

Nicole – Is Advent a fasting season? How did I not know this

Amanda – It is. Well you’re Protestant. So I won’t hold it against you.

Nicole – OK. I just figured Christmas, feast all the time but it’s not Christmas, it’s Advent.

Amanda – So it’s the four weeks leading up until Christmas and it resets us.It’s, Joy to the World as kind of an advent hymn, “Let every heart prepare Him room”, so we’re preparing for the arrival. “Oh come oh come Emmanuel. ..” That, that, that, longing that hunger for God and then you launch in to a 12 day feast which is from.

Nicole – Twelve days of Christmas.

Amanda – Twelve Days of Christmas, but we’ll probably talk about that more as that approaches. But what Is exciting, is that I did not set my launch date, but the Feast of Saint Nicholas. He is the most celebrated fat saint.

Nicole – So amazing.

Amanda – Isn’t that amazing? And like all bodies are good bodies. So I am, I am having fun. I’m gonna make it a St. Nicholas Day party and my book release. So I’m very excited.

Nicole – That is amazing. That’s so cool. Well besides our books this summer, I know we’re both also on other podcasts Who did you interview with?

Amanda – I was on an episode of The Love Food podcast with Julie Duffy Dillon. She’s a no diet dietitian who focuses on intuitive eating and also PCOS which, her podcast is amazing, she has two podcasts. But you should check her out. Julie Duffy Dillon and we talked about your body telling your story and how that relates to food.

Nicole – Yeah so I was able to speak with I think with, three and I hope I’m not forgetting anyone. So one was Eating with Grace, you can look that up. I really enjoyed talking about that one. Another one was called Can I Say This at Church and so the whole podcast deals with just like various issues that people might find impolite to talk about at church and so we talked with, with him there. And then another one it’s a brand new podcast, it’s called Fierce and Lovely, with an author named Beth Bruno. And talked with her a bit about just all these same topics, body image and what that looks like and what it means to be fierce in loving our bodies but also lovely which is the name of your book.

Amanda – So yeah I like that, I like that word. And I’m going to go ahead and apologize. I have strep throat right now. Listeners hopefully by the time you listen to this I will not have it anymore because that will be a while. But I’m, you’re going to hear me coughing a lot and I’m about to go into coughing.

Nicole – All bodies are good bodies but sometimes they hurt, right?

Amanda – It has definitely been a season of learning to lean into my message that all bodies are good bodies that weak and sick bodies are good even in their, even in their limitations, trying to learn to rest and have relationship right. So if I say that the purpose of my body is relationship and not perfection or health. Yeah, that’s a little harder when, all the sudden you’re like, oh but.

Nicole – I just can’t move!

Amanda – I want a well body. So it’s that, already but not yet, tension.

Nicole – Yeah it’s a lot to learn, grace for the journey.

Amanda – Thanks. Well we’re going to get into discussing an article that went a little viral a few weeks ago. But before we do that we want to give you our resource recommendation of the episode that our group on Facebook, All Bodies Are Good Bodies. It’s facebook.com/groups/allbodiesaregoodbodies. Nicole tell us a little bit about the group.

Nicole – Yeah, so it has grown a lot since we left the podcast last in May. There’s almost 300 members and Amanda and I were just chatting before we got started recording about how fun and encouraging it is to watch people interact with each other. The members of the group just do a really good job of being vulnerable and asking questions that are hard or maybe a little uncomfortable to ask and then encouraging each other towards loving their bodies and accepting their bodies as good and made in the image of God. And so seeing that community is really encouraging to me personally.

Amanda – Yeah. And like any community it’s not all rainbows and bubblegum. We have good conversations and sometimes we get a little prickly with each other just because we’re learning, right? We’re learning how to talk about bodies in a way that honors all bodies as good bodies. And sometimes that is uncomfortable.

Nicole – Yeah and it’s a private Facebook group I believe, so people may be able to see you’re a member but your conversations and your comments are private to those actually in the group.

Amanda – Right.

Nicole – Which is helpful.

Amanda – And we have a great team of moderators. Nicole and I are the main admins but we’ve brought on a team of, I think four or five people who are just really invested in in this conversation. And it’s one of the best things that I’m enjoying right now my life is The All Bodies group. So you should head on over there and check it out.

Nicole – Yes. Thank you for creating that group, Amanda. I think it started as kind of like a book input group and then grew and you just really shaped that. So thank you for that gift, it’s great.

Amanda – Thanks, Nicole!

Nicole – A great place to be on the internet.

Amanda – I know. So one of my big passions is hospitality. And when I say hospitality I’m not talking like just like the hotel industry obviously. Although that’s part of it. I love staying at hotels. But creating a space where people can be themselves and especially for people of size. We’ve been told so often that we have to fit in a certain space whether that be a physical space or emotional space or even an online presence where there’s not, there’s not room to ask these hard questions without people criticizing us for being fat or for asking questions about, is it OK to be fat. Is it ok not to live in diet culture like 100%. We want to be free from that. And so I am so thankful that the group has turned out to be a place where we can see the Holy Spirit making, making room for us to be ourselves through technology. It’s not something I ever thought I would say about technology but I am so glad I was wrong.

Nicole – Yeah it’s it’s a great place to be. I hope you join, who are listening. Go search us out.

Amanda – Yeah. Search us out make sure you answer the questions that pop up when you-.

Nicole – We won’t approve you if you don’t.

Amanda – Right. So it just makes basically we just need to know you’re not a troll.

Nicole – Pretty much.

Amanda – All right. Nicole what’s next on the agenda?

Nicole – OK so we are going to chat about an article today that went a little bit viral this summer on Huffington Post. And it’s an article called Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong. And it was written by a man named Michael Hobbes. So the article is super long, so we’re not gonna like read through it, as we’ve done with articles before. But we’d like to just kind of chat about it in general. Amanda, do you remember like reading it or your initial thoughts when you first saw it or anything like that?

Amanda – So I got on Facebook the day that it came out which was September 19th. So it’s been a couple of weeks and I had all these notifications!

Nicole – Same!

Amanda – Of “this is an amazing article”, “these are things Amanda has been saying”, et cetera. And number one. So this this this just made me feel very loved because I’m like oh wow people have been listening to what I’m saying. And most of the people who tagged me were not fat people. They were you know what I would call average sized people who I felt like for the first time, were being vocal about the anti fat bias in our society. And I think they’ve always been friends. But to have people step up as allies and be like, “hey”, that was really encouraging. So that, I started reading it with that feeling of, well I hope this article is good I’m encouraged that my friends are talking about this. What about you?

Nicole – Yes a similar experience to logging on to Facebook to a million notifications about it. That day that it was published I was in all day meetings for work, and didn’t look at my phone once I think for like 10 hours. And so I logged on it was just Twitter, Facebook, everyone had been tagging me and I read the article. I don’t think I read it actually till the next day and I read it. It was just, there was kind of these two things. One, exciting that, like it was out there and that this article was so popular and that it was getting views and feedback and affirmation and that people were seeing it and seemed to resonate. But also there is this like nothing in the article was new to me. Like some of the stories, yes. But in terms of the facts and the health studies and things like that that he presented, it’s work that the fat acceptance community has been doing for a very long time. And so there is that mix of “OK this is great, I’m so glad. But this isn’t new. We’ve already been telling you this”, like is this actually going to change anything. In the article, the author of the article, is a thin man I believe a white man. Not sure. And I saw some of his stuff on his Twitter and he’s, he’s acknowledged some of those same things. That part of his thin privilege is what allows him to write it without as much criticism as fat people get when they say the same thing. And so there’s some of that tension there and just kind of accepting that that’s part of the reality of how, how information gets communicated in our world and who gets believed and trusted and elevated and who doesn’t. So yeah and just kinda hold both of those things. It’s a good article and I’m glad it’s out there.

Amanda – One of the things I’m very, I was very touched by, was the photography that accompanies the piece. They were very thoughtful. I’m reading, this is the note about the photographs. It says, “So many images you see in articles about obesity strip fat people of their strength and personality. According to a recent study only 11 percent of large people depicted in news reports were wearing professional clothing. Nearly 60 percent were headless torsos. So we asked our interview subjects to take full creative control of the photos in this piece. This is how they want to present themselves to the world.” That is amazing. And the photos are so lovely. Oh my word.

Nicole – Yeah they are, they’re great and just the self representation and being able to decide, how your body is presented as a gift that we don’t often get.

Amanda – It’s I mean you know the struggle, excuse me, when we look for stock photos and even the people who choose stock photos for our articles or even our book covers. I had to go through a couple of iterations to find one that included, to find representation of fat bodies that are joyful, competent professional with heads.

Nicole – Right? Smiling.

Amanda – Yeah. And I think that tide is shifting. As we we create awareness of the issue so, I’m really thankful for the piece. Yeah.

Nicole – I remember the first time I had an article published on this years ago and the editor was like, “I don’t know what picture to use.” She’s like I can’t I can’t find one, that was like a positive representation of a fat body.

Amanda – Was this your Christianity Today piece?

Nicole – No. This is before that a smaller piece. But yeah it was just it was really difficult and I don’t even remember what we ended up in, like a silhouette. I think that was like some kind of like, I don’t even remember. But it was a fat person or the outline of a fat person who didn’t look sad and so like we’re going with it. Good, found one.

Amanda – Well I remember when I, listeners, if you haven’t listened to the first couple of episodes back in season one I’ll recap. Nicole and I met because I was writing an article about thin privilege and in the church particularly, well my online search yielded the result of, God Loves My Fat Body As It Is that Nicole wrote for Christianity Today. And I remember I can still even without looking back at the article, the photo the featured photo in the article, is a woman standing in a road or a path. A fat woman, and it’s fall I think, she’s wearing fall clothing, and I thought that was you, Nicole.

Nicole – A lot of people did, it looks similar to me but it’s not me.

Amanda – It’s funny when when I reached out to you to ask if I could interview you. And then we Skyped. I was like, oh that’s not Nicole. Your image being different from that picture. But it’s just so interesting because I never thought it could be a stock photo, because it was a fat woman with personality. Like she’s not smiling in the photo. She’s looking seriously. But I just assumed it was you, because I’d never really seen a stock photo like that.

Nicole – I know they did, she did a really good job editing on that one, of finding that photo. I loved it too.

Amanda – Was it Kate Shellnut?

Nicole – Yes. And I don’t actually know she chose the photo. But yes that was the editor of the article.

Amanda – Kate and her team. Way to go Kate Shellnut. Yeah. So what about the article, what do you think made it go viral.

Nicole – You know. I mean, oh goodness analyzing the psychology of everybody. I mean it’s a well written. It’s got all the, it does move you. There’s lots there. I don’t know, what do you think about why this particular one?

Amanda – So I’m, I’m looking at the first couple of paragraphs and it’s about scurvy. Which is not something I would automatically connect with fat bodies right? What do we know about scurvy, it’s prevented by eating citrus and it happened to sailors. So but I love what, what’s the author’s name?

Nicole – Michael Hobbes yeah.

Amanda – That you just found out by kind of trial and error that if you had lemons, limes, and oranges then scurvy would be preventable or treatable. And when when the crew was given, they were doing a study where part of the crew was given citrus and the other part wasn’t. And the results were so clear because the ones who ate fruit improved so quickly they were able to help care for the other group. Right. So but the findings were published and then no one really paid attention for 50 years. And I think, this is a line from this kind of myopia results through repeats throughout history. Is it my-OP-ia? My-O-pia? And so he has this built in to his article of, things we’ve known scientifically that we haven’t put into practice for generations. And how is it affecting the people who are missing out on that but looking at science dieting, doesn’t work, it’s harmful to your health to, to diet. The studies are showing that but people don’t want to hear it because it contradicts the narrative of what we are being fed. No pun intended.

Nicole – When you look at it. So he uses this example of the scurvy. And he does a brief paragraph on seat belts and they both have this resistance to implementing what actually works because of money. And this idea that it was cheaper to try and treat scurvy this other way that didn’t work at all. But it costs less money. So at least we feel like we’re doing something. And then the seat belts, let’s see cars in the 60s used asbestos… It didn’t start banning things that they knew were harmful or forcing things that they knew were helpful for quite a long time. And I’m sure like, cost was a factor there. And that’s the thing we hear often when talking about practice and health is like how much fat people cost the medical industry, as if our bodies are a drain on the system. And so I think there’s some of that same resistance there which I think it’s interesting that he used these ideas. Like somehow, right now for most people, like fat bodies aren’t allowed what their bodies need in terms of resources or investment in our economy as a whole. And so just pondering that is a thing that can get to me, that you know it’s those bodies aren’t worth the certain that there’s a limit to how much my body is allowed to cost myself or the society.

Amanda – That commodification right? Feminism talks a lot about the objectification of women, as it should. We are humans and not objects that exist for someone else’s use, we are created in the image of God. But there’s, my friend Marion Hill put it this way. He says, “weight discrimination is the last acceptable bias that we have.” We think it’s OK to commodify fat bodies. There’s, there’s this story that that there’s a better body to have, a thin healthy body, or a muscular healthy body. So we look for the details. We look for studies that confirm our anti fat bias. So.

Nicole – Yeah I mean I modify that quote to say one of the last, because I think there are other bodies that are still definitely people, are socially acceptable to mock in many ways. But fat bodies are definitely a group of people that, we’re society at whole thinks it’s, who are good, to mock us or to discriminate against us, that it will somehow shame us into being thin.

Amanda – I would say that in the most progressive even though of circumstances, that he’s right. Because I think there’s a lot of awareness of disability discrimination and gender orientation discrimination. But again it’s not a competition. I mean it’s not a competition.

Nicole – No I would agree it’s, it’s fairly common to be in very progressive spaces and for people who are very, very intent on honoring bodies of various identities that they still leave out fat bodies. It’s common. So I would agree in that way.

Amanda – Have you have you been watching The Good Place.

Nicole – I do. I’m watching it, yes.

Amanda – I’ve been reading a lot about it. Mayfield has been writing about it and I love the show. But the thing is, they have represented so much diversity except there are no fat bodies in the show.

Nicole – That reminds me. The other day I think it was yesterday I was scrolling through Facebook and there was an image associated with some event that’s local. And it had a bunch of different arms with raised fists still like a feminist thing and one of the arms was fat and I like, just stopped and stared at it for like a good couple of minutes. I’m like that is so rare. Like all of the arms had different various skin tones and like types of like, jewelry and you can tell they’re trying to represent a wide range of people. And they included fatness. And I’m like that’s so rare.

Amanda – It’s like someone remembering what your favorite candy is but like on a much bigger scale.

Nicole – Like, I exist.

Amanda – Not just what kind of candy I like but that I’m here. Turning back to the article I’m going to read a couple of sentences and then connect it to what’s going on right now. “Forty five percent of adults say they’re preoccupied with their weight. Some or all of the time, an eleven point rise since 1990. Nearly half of 3 to 6 year old girls say they worry about being fat. The emotional costs are incalculable. I have never written a story where so many of my sources cried during interviews where they double and triple check that I would not reveal their names where they shook with anger describing their interaction with doctors and strangers in their own families.” So what is the value of our emotions? Is our emotional health on par with our physical health in in the public discourse. And this is particularly relevant to me thinking about, as we’re recording, the Senate confirmations for Kavanaugh are happening actually today and just thinking about the, the emotion I have seen people express on both sides. Those in favor and those against his confirmation. But I’ve seen so much of it reduced to, that people who are against his confirmation are just being are quote just being emotional as if emotional cost of our public conversations should not matter.

Nicole – Yeah I think there is that underlying assumption. Even if it’s subconscious, that there are some things so important that your emotions and your mental health don’t matter. Your feelings don’t matter. And I say that would be true in the discourse around these Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. And then I think it’s also true when people who are anti fat talk about fat bodies. You often hear that shaming works. That shaming makes people lose weight so therefore it should be employed. And so mental health and like our holistic health of who we are as an entire person, is sacrificed on this idea that somehow we’ll be healthy if we’re skinnier which isn’t even true. Yeah. So yeah I think that’s a key thing.

Amanda – So I was raised to be very thinking oriented even though I am very much a feeler and I saw that come out just even at the beginning of this podcast. So our feelings towards this article are very indicative of our personality types and pardon me, listeners but I’m going to talk about the any enneagram. So if you, if you’re not on board, just, just hit that that little skip button if you want to not hear about the enneagram. But for those of you who don’t know, the enneagram is a personality profiling tool that has nine different personality types and they’re based quantified, not quantified, identified through numbers. And so like a 9 as the peacemaker, the 1 is the perfectionist. The two is the helper or befriend-er. The three is the achieve,r the four is the artist, the five is the analyst researcher, the six is the loyalist, seven is the adventurer, the eight is the challenger OK. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it what do you mean, I could just recite those from memory with no problem. No I was not reading any notes, I’m just really into the enneagram. I am a to 2, the helper, the befriend-er, the feeler. Not that other numbers don’t feel, but I’m very much concerned with how others perceive me, and how, how I can help other people. And so reading this article my response is like, I’m being seen. People are, people are coming alongside of me. I have friends on this journey. It makes me feel known and it’s not a perfect article but it’s still really great. Calling out the greatness it. Nicole on the other hand, you’re a 5.

Nicole – I’m now laughing thinking about how I, what I said about it.

Amanda – So what did you say?

Nicole – I was like well it’s great, but we really knew all these facts.

Amanda – Which is such a 5 thing to say!

Nicole – Cool, guy got attention. But, where have you been?

Amanda – Because you’re like, this is data and we’ve been saying this, we’ve been doing the research and reporting the data for years.

Nicole – I’m like, welcome to reality everyone.

Amanda – It’s so funny. Nicole and I have a message, our message on Facebook, back and forth just about life. And after having come across the enneagram and learning that Nicole is a 5 and knowing that I’m a 2, I’m like oh my gosh we’re a great team. Because I have all the feels and she has all the thinks.

Nicole – So look we got something for everyone out there, so, good to go.

Amanda – Let’s, let’s talk about this motif and I don’t know if motif’s the right word. But he says in the, the article “my interest in this issue is slightly more than journalistic. Growing up my mother’s weight was the uncredited co-star of every family drama, the obvious unspoken reason why she never got out of the car when she picked me up from school, why she disappeared from the family photo album for years at a time, why she spent hours making meatloaf and then sat beside us eating a bowl of carrots.” The idea of an uncredited co-star in every family drama, that line. Wow.

Nicole – Yeah. And it just it makes me sad for people who are still hiding from life because they think they’re not allowed to participate. And I totally place the blame for that on our society as a whole rather than the individuals. I wish I could let people know that you’re allowed to live your life in the body you have right now.

Amanda – That’s our slogan, right, to it’s the heart of our motto, slogan not sure the best… Our vision statement for the podcast, Loving God incarnate and our neighbors..

Nicole – Our neighbor’s body as our own.

Amanda – That something like that. We have it on our notes, right?

Nicole – Yes and our mission is to love God incarnate and our neighbor’s body as our own.

Amanda – Yes there we go.

Nicole – We know what we’re doing.

Amanda – The truth is anybody can do a podcast guys.

Nicole – Just get a mic and record yourself.

Amanda – Pretty much but with that we are so consumed by fear about our bodies and a lot of it is not irrational fear. A lot of it is people have been cruel and to be able to come to a place where you say you know what, for the sake of God for God’s sake and for my sake for my neighbor’s sake I’ve got to get the right understanding and see myself the way that God sees me so that I can live out and bring his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven where all bodies are good bodies. The author’s mother said, “the bigger way my weight affected my life was that I waited to do things because I thought fat people couldn’t do them.” She got her master’s degree at thirty eight her PhD at fifty five. “I avoided so many activities where I thought my weight would discredit me.”

Nicole – And I think that a lot of our stories. Like I got into fat acceptance in college so fairly young. But I still often think like if I had known who I was, if I hadn’t been so focused on just like my size in high school like what choices I’ve made that were different than the ones that I did. And I’m very happy with my life, I have a good life but I often wonder, what would have been different if I had been ok with myself and confident about myself from an early age. And I think there would have been differences.

Amanda – Yeah. Even just the emotional exhaustion.

Nicole – Career choices I think there would’ve been a lot of things that I would have explored or pursued that I didn’t or that I chose not to.

Amanda – High school for me was very fraught with weight issues. I was not fat in high school but I thought that I was. I would have passed the chair test. Well I don’t know if pass fail. I would have fit in any chair. Now I do not and I’ve always dreamed of teaching big audiences. Like that’s I just love teaching, and I love performing right. That’s that’s a gift that God has given me. The bigger that I’ve gotten though, imagining myself on a stage as a fat woman has has been one of the struggles. I’m a dreamer. Like, I have to dream it. I have to see it. And then I can go do it. But there just are not a lot of fat women on stages. Yeah. And I…

Nicole – Yep. And the ones that are are often, their body is the center of why they’re on the stage. They don’t get to have their stories.

Amanda – Yeah well it’s can we have a show that, and not even a show. But can we have a person, can we be the person that says I’m here. Well you know I know that you do non-profit work and I am, I’m the new job that I’ve gotten is in the nonprofit field as well. And so meeting people, talking to people, teaching about the different things that we are working for. I’m still, I still even after years of, of loving my body and learning to accept it. I still am afraid of what people are gonna think of me. When I talk about something that’s not bodies right. I can talk about bodies all day long. All bodies are good bodies. This is what you need to do and I’m a witness to the fact that.

Nicole – Yeah but when you’re just being professional and whatever your day job it is, like is anyone going to believe me? Do I look like a slob? Yeah.

Amanda – Right. Does my weight discredit me?

Nicole – We should and entire episode on like professionalism and body size and how that intersects thing.

Amanda – It’s a real thing. Well we’ve been talking for forty two minutes.

Nicole – I know this was supposed to be like our catch up, we won’t chat for long. Welcome to Season 3. But we like to talk so. But we’re going to have an exciting season for y’all. We’ve been talking about notes, we’re going to be interviewing some people. We also hope to expand the season to talking about, talking with people who are loving their neighbors while in other types of marginalized bodies. So expanding that because our mission is to, love God incarnate and our neighbors body as our own and that extends to more than just other fat bodies. So how can we be better at loving all of our neighbors. So we’re gonna learn from some other people in that regard as well. Yeah.

Amanda – Just a reminder. Seek out our Facebook group, facebook.com/groups/allbodiesaregoodbodies and request to join and answer the questions, we’d love to have you there. Contributing to the conversation, asking any questions you have about bodies, and it’s all while we are people of faith, it is open for people of all faith, any faith, no faith. You are welcome.

Nicole – Absolutely. Well thank you so much for joining us today. We’d love for you to continue to engage with us online. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Fat and Faithful and join the discussion group on Facebook at All Bodies are Good Bodies. Please take a minute to rate and review the podcast on iTunes and share this episode of social media using the hashtags, fatandfaithful or allbodiesaregoodbodies. This helps us reach more people with our mission to love God incarnate and our neighbors; bodies as our own.

Amanda – We’re so thankful that you joined us today have a great week.